Media Free fight: Do Bronx vs FKL

[MescalineDreams]

Your posts read like it’s from a parody account. Get help please

Only jiu jitsu people can really have an opinion here I think.


There's just way too much that happened which would go over the average fans head.

I'd be interested what higher belts think.

 

[KOPPE]

tapped out physically but not mentally

 

[HHJ]

I remember just a few years back people thought Kevin Lee was the next GOAT lol.

He still got time baby!

 

[Th3Sav4ge]

The confidence of Oliviera was most impressive here, & he looked substantially more skilled in his kickboxing. He was still opened to being countered, but his pre-exchange defensive was solid with mostly slips but also managing distance well. Tony Ferguson-esq in his pressure as well, with more jumping & flying shit.

Lee landed a few counter rights from the orthodox stance(which I found odd but he looked clean in) that would have broken the Oliviera of old, but he fired back & landed without hesitation. Marching forward his footwork in cutting off the cage was great. He beat the best version of Kevin Lee, who looked leaner than ever & more skilled under Firas.

His grappling is as dangerous as ever if not more so, as he mostly outmaneuvered 'round one Lee' who even with staph was able to soundly beat up Ferguson in round 1. I think this version Oliviera beats current Tony, & maybe prime Tony.

EDIT: Oliviera got his 15th 'Performance of The Night' bonus & his 17th UFC win. Dude doesnt get enough respect.

i will start this post by saying Charles has transformed himself into an excellent fighter. im not sure if its his confidence in his striking or new found confidence due to his frame filling out more but he seems to be in the Werdum period of his career where he is now one of the best strikers in his division, but everyone looks at him like hes the old charles.

But when u say best version on lee no. missed weight, and i think firas is one of the best coaches in mma, i think lee is lucky to be around him. But firas and the team got that fight all wrong. their game plan was to strike, just like it was vs 5'7 gregor gilespy. Lee is a power Wrestler with kind of poor cardio. He need to be pressing fools against the fence like coleman, couture, khabib all the great wrestlers do or have done. Lee was fighting someone with much better bjj so in the oopen mat the scrambles will always favor charles, but against the fence lee can pin him there and midigate alot of charles bjj. Why they put together a striking gameplan based on his head kick of gregor is beyond me. if lee makes a mistake and say charles takes him down off a kick or takes his back lee is fucked, if lee gets tired and loses the striking exchange well now hes shooting in on charles terms(what actually happened)

idk i might be over thinking but i cant stand watching these power wreslters refuse to use the cage to stifle bjj. i know people can cage walk, so what? keep them on the cage usman/khabib style. It bugs the fuck out of me Nate diaz,Magny, and other strikers with bjj will clinch and use the cage to wear guys out but dominant wrestlers arent. I mean maybe charles still tapps him,maybe lee was out gunned the whole time, but working around his strength is a no no imo

 

[Maori]

There's a strong argument that he lost the first two rounds though.

But I agree. Oliveira looked very polished both on the feet and ground.

Polished?

At times he looked like a human punching bag

 

[MescalineDreams]

He still got time baby!

Yeah. It's odd people forget he's the youngest fighter in the division.

People also weirdly act like he gets dominated but in every one of his losses, he was very competitive.

 

[HHJ]

Yeah. It's odd people forget he's the youngest fighter in the division.

People also weirdly act like he gets dominated but in every one of his losses, he was very competitive.

I like him alot and wish him well!

 

[Razor]

Aloe Vera needs more respect, which he will get if he finishes Tony, UFC needs to hurry up and announce this as a 5 rounder damnit!

 

[BJJ_Rage]

At this point, after being bored and watching this fight like half a dozen times.. Im absolutely convinced Lee won the first round.

People want to give Oliveira the edge on the ground just because he was going for a lot of submissions. Ignoring the fact that Lee was defending, nullifying, countering every single one of his attacks and assuming a more advantageous position for most of the round.. on top of landing some of the most significant strikes of the round while on top.


People don't realize how good Lee's grappling is. Their only understanding of jiu jitsu is blatant offense but ignore the rest.

If their ground work were judged by the jiu jitsu community, Lee would have edged him. Lee almost had mount, swept him, passed to half gaurd and maintained. Positional advantage for almost the entirety of the second half of the round. Just the fact that Oliveira was attacking with submissions means nothing, they were defended and he was ultimately nullified.

mmm nop.

lee never achieved mount nor side control in any of the rounds, he got to half, and defended pretty well all attacks, he got close to being armbared in the second, also in the second he was getting Light up, took it to the ground and spent like 1 1/2 minutes in Charles half guard doing nothing but shoulder strikes. Under a grappling perspective, he would have not gotten the edge, under mma perspective, it depends, if some judge is giving more points for top position rather than being close to finish the fight, the I guess he could’ve have gotten round 2, round 1 was Charles and not just because of the grappling but for the striking part. Close fight, I would’ve probably guess it was 1-1 going to the third

11 years of grappling experience here, brown belt but have dropped the gi 5 years ago.

 

[Fedor_Silva]

Every judge gave Oliviera the first two rounds and then he finished Lee in the third

Lee also came in heavy and looked way bigger than him

Wasn’t close or competitive at all

Tks bro. After seeing those comments, I thought I had seen a different fight, or maybe was crazy.

 

[MescalineDreams]

mmm nop.

lee never achieved mount nor side control in any of the rounds, he got to half, and defended pretty well all attacks, he got close to being armbared in the second, also in the second he was getting Light up, took it to the ground and spent like 1 1/2 minutes in Charles half guard doing nothing but shoulder strikes. Under a grappling perspective, he would have not gotten the edge, under mma perspective, it depends, if some judge is giving more points for top position rather than being close to finish the fight, the I guess he could’ve have gotten round 2, round 1 was Charles and not just because of the grappling but for the striking part. Close fight, I would’ve probably guess it was 1-1 going to the third

11 years of grappling experience here, brown belt but have dropped the gi 5 years ago.

I was speaking specifically on the first round. Not the entire fight. I just think he cinched it within the last 2 minutes of the round. Didn't get mount but had a couple nice reversals and although Oliveira was attacking nonstop, Lee defended everything and basically nullified him.

I would've said Oliveira was edging him on the mat but then Lee passed to half, knee on the face and dropped like 7 strikes / elbows, 3 of which were more significant of the round. It just seems like Lee scored the most points at the very end and it was the most significant moment of the round.

On the feet I wouldn't say Oliveira had some huge advantage, at least in the first. Lee landed the more significant blows to the head. A clean right hand, multiple jabs. I could see how Oliveira might have edged it but not by much.


I actually think there's more of an argument for Oliveira winning the second, crazy as that sounds lol. He was lighting him up on the feet, the first few minutes were the most significant of the round. Lee did land some strikes when on top but mostly just controlled him.

Most mma news outlets gave Lee that round, it's hard to not score it for a guy who controls the last 3 minutes of the end of a round I guess.

Anyways just my thought. I appreciate your input greatly.

At the very least Im happy some of us agree that it was a competitive fight. I think a lot seen it as a domination and didn't give Lee much credit which is kind of sad to see. I think he deserves a lot more credit than he gets, even in his losses, he showcases glimpses of his potential.

 

[BigTruck]

Lee actually did a lot better than I remember

Looks like he won the first 2 rounds.

Oliveira Is definitely a beast though. He fought like a note technical and refined tony ferguson.

There's a strong argument that he lost the first two rounds though.

But I agree. Oliveira looked very polished both on the feet and ground.

Oliveira looks to have lost the first 2 rounds on points in spite of Oliveira landing some good shots on the feet.

Then won with a guillotine.

It was a competitive fight

U gotta give credit to both fighters in the grappling here.

Oliveira was a wizard in his fluid, creative transitions and he was just nonstop but for everything charles threw at him, he defended very well and showed a lot of grappling / positional iq. And he ended the first 2 rounds on top, doing damage.

Obviously not good enough as he got choked, but both fighters deserve credit here.

He landed quite a few shots on the feet in the first. It was fairly even on the feet. In the grappling, oliveira threw everything at him and Lee defended, countered effectively and ended up in advantageous positions of his own. The activity and danger of Oliveira's grappling from the bottom made it difficult to land effective shots, but he landed a few. A few big shots near the end of the round followed by 2 minutes of control stole the round.

Oliveira looked to be pressuring in the second, landed some solid shots and was looking dangerous, but he was taken down, controlled and trapped in half gaurd for half the round taking shots and elbows.

In terms of damage you can certainly argue Oliveira won the second, although it's always gonna be uncommon to give a round to a fighter who's controlled for the last 2 and a half minutes of a round taking strikes.

It was a competitive fight.

Correction it was not 2 minutes of control.

It was 1 minute at the very end.

Still, I think it was a very close round. Striking was even, Oliveira was active as fuck with his jiu jitsu but lee defended well. Then he landed 4 solid punches from the top, some of the best of the round and ended the round in a dominant position.

But I could see how some might give the first to Oliveira. It was close

If you look at all the news outlets

Most gave Lee the second.

The first was very close. The striking was even. Both landed very good shots. lee landed better counters and clean shots. Oliveira was a wizard with his creative transitions and attacks, but Lee defended well and himself showcased some strong grappling and positional IQ in the face of a solid black belt in Oliveira.

I could see why you might give the first to Oliveira. But I think ending the last minute in a dominant position position and those 3-4 punches to the head from the top were probably the best of the round and I think you could easily argue stole it.

But yeah. It was competitive in many respects. Which I myself didn't even realize until rewatching just now. Hindsight is 20/20.

You're entitled to your opinion. But you've made it clear you don't like Lee for a long time. You aren't exactly the picture of objectivity.

Most news outlets gave Lee the second. He was on for 50% of the round throwing short shots and elbows.

Lee landed the better strikes on the feet and the 3 shots he landed at the very end were probably the best of the round. On top of ending the last minute of the fight on top.

Like I said I could understand why people would give Oliveira the nod. His technique, fluid transitions and creativity in attacks were nasty and nonstop. But for every attack I think Lee also showed very solid defense, grappling and positional iq and counters of his own.

At the very least, it was competitive. If Lee wasn't competently handling himself on the ground, it would have very quickly considering how on point Oliveira was.

This was describing the first round. Not the second. Can't edit.

lee landed some good shots on the feet as well in that first minute and a half before they hit the ground.

On the ground, Oliveira showcased incredibly fluid, technical jiu jitsu, transitions, creativity and attacks, used his length well. But for every attack Lee also defended and countered very well and showcased very strong grappling and positional IQ as well.

Even with all those attacks, Lee still had the advantageous position in the last 2 minutes of the round, passed to half guard, landed 3 of the best punches of the round and ended on

Oliveira attacked but wasn't able to make anything of it, while his opponent was competently defending and avoiding every attack and trap set. In spite of those attacks, Lee was still able to defend and end up in advantageous positions and ended the last 2 minutes on top. That's a close, back and forth battle.

I guess it was ending the last 2 minutes on top and landing 3 of the best shots of the round at the end.

But I could see why you would give it to Oliveira.

All in all think my point stands that it was a competitive round and Lee did a lot better than even I gave him credit for in the fight.

That said, Oliveira Is a beast and is truly hitting his prime. He fought like a more technical, defined and dangerous version of Tony Ferguson.

And yet still, at 28, he still has more potential than anyone in the current top 10.

If you asked a room full of the best fighters , coaches and analysts how they rate lee

I'd bet my entire net worth that they would heavily disagree with you.

Every one of Lee's losses were competitive. Even his fight against RDA, where RDA himself said he didnt think Lee would be able to handle the difference in weight and it even took him a long time before he felt comfortable at welterweight.

This is a RDA who just came off 3 fights with the toughest guys at WW.

Skill wise, he was not out of place at all in that fight. Nor was he in the Bronx fight. It was competitive and he got choked by a high level black belt.

Now, if this were a case where Lee was losing dominantly, I would fully agree. But hes demonstrating, even in his losses that the skill is there in every area.

I think Oliveira is probably one of, if not his toughest fight in the division. A tall, lanky fighter with excellent striking and a wizard off his back.

I think we need to establish that Lee does have the skills to compete with the best in the division. And with more adjustments and continued improvement, along with continuing to put the pieces together under a proper head coach which he didnt have for the last few years, his potential is still very much there.

People forget that he just turned 28. He hasn't even hit his prime yet.

Charles Oliveira is 31. 3 years older than Lee and hes been fighting for 4 years longer. When he was 28, he was losing to Ricardo Lamas and Paul Felder.

If I'm not mistaken, Lee is the youngest fighter in the top 15.

All that said, I think a lot of people are heavily influenced by recency bias, see losses but context and overall miss the bigger picture.

GSP himself said he thinks Lee will end up being the best. This may or may not be true, but I think most fans would be surprised just how far fighter opinions on Lee differ from their own.

Some of the greatest minds in the sport believed be was champ caliber and still do. Largely because he is among the youngest fighters competing at that level.

A loss to Oliveira, a competitive one at that where he wasn't dominated but lost by choke is enough to make many ignore all the other available information.

Which speaks volumes about how short sighted even intelligent fans can be when it comes to assessing skillset and potential.

I think if you asked a room full of jiu jitsu people how they rated the grappling, most would deem it a lot closer than it was scored.

Reason being, while Oliveira was nonstop attacking, Lee was defending everything thrown at him and countering effectively and consistently establishing advantageous positions of his own. Not only that but he ended the last two minutes on his back with lee landing 3 of the most significant shots of the fight and ending the round with short punches and elbows

Oliveira attacked throughout the round, yes. But everything he did was effectively nullified and Lee was overall more effective and caused more damage.

I myself seen that round as a lot more dominant for Charles the first time around than it actually was and I suspect this was the case for many.

I don't necessarily think anyone is wrong for thinking Oliveira won the round but I think it was competitive and closer than most people think.

It's kinda awkward throwing on lanky, long guys when you're used to a certain range.

Conor for example is masterful at controlling the distance and using the potential of his length extremely well but when he fought Nate, you could see that length was giving him some issue and changing the way he typically fights.

There's obviously a way to fight longer guys but it's definitely a stylistic challenge if you're not used to it.

At this point, after being bored and watching this fight like half a dozen times.. Im absolutely convinced Lee won the first round.

People want to give Oliveira the edge on the ground just because he was going for a lot of submissions. Ignoring the fact that Lee was defending, nullifying, countering every single one of his attacks and assuming a more advantageous position for most of the round.. on top of landing some of the most significant strikes of the round while on top.


People don't realize how good Lee's grappling is. Their only understanding of jiu jitsu is blatant offense but ignore the rest.

If their ground work were judged by the jiu jitsu community, Lee would have edged him. Lee almost had mount, swept him, passed to half gaurd and maintained. Positional advantage for almost the entirety of the second half of the round. Just the fact that Oliveira was attacking with submissions means nothing, they were defended and he was ultimately nullified.

I could be wrong on the scoring thing. Would be interested in the opinion of higher level jiu jitsu people.

It just seemed like Lee edged it when he passed to half gaurd, got the knee on his face and landed 3 of the hardest strikes of the round and ended with elbows and short punches.

Feel free to let me know exactly what it was you disagreed with.

And also provide your own assessment of what happened.

Otherwise, it's just empty words.

Only jiu jitsu people can really have an opinion here I think.


There's just way too much that happened which would go over the average fans head.

I'd be interested what higher belts think.

Yeah. It's odd people forget he's the youngest fighter in the division.

People also weirdly act like he gets dominated but in every one of his losses, he was very competitive.

I was speaking specifically on the first round. Not the entire fight. I just think he cinched it within the last 2 minutes of the round. Didn't get mount but had a couple nice reversals and although Oliveira was attacking nonstop, Lee defended everything and basically nullified him.

I would've said Oliveira was edging him on the mat but then Lee passed to half, knee on the face and dropped like 7 strikes / elbows, 3 of which were more significant of the round. It just seems like Lee scored the most points at the very end and it was the most significant moment of the round.

On the feet I wouldn't say Oliveira had some huge advantage, at least in the first. Lee landed the more significant blows to the head. A clean right hand, multiple jabs. I could see how Oliveira might have edged it but not by much.


I actually think there's more of an argument for Oliveira winning the second, crazy as that sounds lol. He was lighting him up on the feet, the first few minutes were the most significant of the round. Lee did land some strikes when on top but mostly just controlled him.

Most mma news outlets gave Lee that round, it's hard to not score it for a guy who controls the last 3 minutes of the end of a round I guess.

Anyways just my thought. I appreciate your input greatly.

At the very least Im happy some of us agree that it was a competitive fight. I think a lot seen it as a domination and didn't give Lee much credit which is kind of sad to see. I think he deserves a lot more credit than he gets, even in his losses, he showcases glimpses of his potential.

Chill out dude. We get it Lee is your favorite fighter but this is legit the worst spamming I've ever seen.

 

[WhoWalksWithFergus]

also i forgot about him furiously tapping and then pretending he didnt to try to continue. Weak

That's a pretty unfair assessment of what happened. Lee got absolutely sparked right before the submission, he was basically on another planet when the fight ended. I don't think he was pretending that he didn't tap, I think he genuinely didn't know what had happened.

 

[MescalineDreams]

Chill out dude. We get it Lee is your favorite fighter but this is legit the worst spamming I've ever seen.

Dont have a favourite fighter

I like everyone

Most of the Kevin Lee analysis is just really bad, so I just tell it like it is.

 

[MescalineDreams]

That's a pretty unfair assessment of what happened. Lee got absolutely sparked right before the submission, he was basically on another planet when the fight ended. I don't think he was pretending that he didn't tap, I think he genuinely didn't know what had happened.

He did?
Lee was out striking him at the beginning of the 3rd. And ended the last 3 mins of the 2nd round on top.

I agree though that he didnt know what happened. His reaction was genuine. Its possible he went out from the choke for a split second.

 

[maximus__]

At this point, after being bored and watching this fight like half a dozen times.. Im absolutely convinced Lee won the first round.

People want to give Oliveira the edge on the ground just because he was going for a lot of submissions. Ignoring the fact that Lee was defending, nullifying, countering every single one of his attacks and assuming a more advantageous position for most of the round.. on top of landing some of the most significant strikes of the round while on top.


People don't realize how good Lee's grappling is. Their only understanding of jiu jitsu is blatant offense but ignore the rest.

If their ground work were judged by the jiu jitsu community, Lee would have edged him. Lee almost had mount, swept him, passed to half gaurd and maintained. Positional advantage for almost the entirety of the second half of the round. Just the fact that Oliveira was attacking with submissions means nothing, they were defended and he was ultimately nullified.

Defence doesn't score in the unified rules of mma. Oliveira was threatening with multiple submissions and that why he wins the first.

He also takes the second round as the start of the round was him out striking Lee who then proceeded to only maintain top position. Oliveira also finishes the round with an entry to the legs for another sub attempt. This one could go either way though and isn't a lock for either fighter.

Those two rounds set up the lazy shot from Lee resulting in him getting subbed. His conditioning as usual and his opponent out skilling him is what lost him the fight. That short spurt at the start 3rd was all Lee had left.

 

[TR1]

Lee always muscles his way into dominant positions in rd1 and 2 of many of his fights.

And predictably gasses out promptly after.

 

[Kb7]

Chill out dude. We get it Lee is your favorite fighter but this is legit the worst spamming I've ever seen.

You post enough times, then eventually it becomes truth in someone’s head.

 

[Sticko]

Oliveira is one of my favorite fighters in any weight class but he'd have to fight a lot better than this to have a chance against Khabib. You can't afford to let Khabib lie inside your half guard like Kevin Lee did to Oliveira in the second round.

 

[BigTruck]

You post enough times, then eventually it becomes truth in someone’s head.

He legit has issues. He was replying to himself at times. Post whoring and spam. Both violations of the rules