Forrest Griffin is criminally underrated

[mkt]

As I previously stated, anyone who has the idea that someone who is a perennial top 10 at what he does is a "journeyman" is an idiot. It's really that simple. You in the very top percentile of participants. That's not a journeyman. Guys who are borderline UFC caliber would be fair to call journeymen.

Exactly. And anyone who says Forrest was on the same level as Jim Miller, who never won a title or beat a Top 5 guy in his weight class, is either incredibly stupid, biased or both.

I wouldn't even call Forrest a gatekeeper (which is much better than journeyman). Anyone who wins a title moves beyond that label in my book. Cerrone is the ultimate journeyman.

 

[CroCopsLHK]

Fixed it for you

What facts? The story of someones career and success is subjective. I'll go my way. I appreciate and admire FG as a former fighter and champ. I don't subscribe to bottom feeder logic

 

[DarthBinks]

Hes in the Hall of Fame...he not that underated!

 

[Ghostoftheville]

Makes his debut against fucking Dan Severn at age 22.

Saves the UFC with the Bonnar fight

Submits prime Shogun and beats Rampage to win the title in one of the most tactical performances ever by a LHW.

Put everything on the line and fought prime Anderson when everyone was terrified of him. Takes balls

5 wins against 3 former UFC champs. Pure grit and determination, wasn't born as some super athlete, all hard work. Some of the best cardio in LHW history, underrated ground game, and just one of the most likable guys in MMA. Shame his injuries led to his retirement. I am glad the UFC gave him a job.

I'm not for or against Griffin, but that wasn't the most compelling argument to make in his case.
-Made his debut in a losing effort to man 21 years his senior.
-Saved the UFC, won't deny or sully that point.
-Submitted Shogun, but was brutally assaulted in the rematch.
-Won the title in a questionable decision, and immediately lost it to Evans.
-After losing his title to Evans followed it by being completely outclassed by the champion of a smaller division and popped for anxiety medication afterward.
-He's a fighter that went far above expectations and leave it at that.

 

[IBeLurkin]

No, Shogun was not at the top of his game. He fought injured (had ACL surgery after the fight) and gassed inside 2 rounds (Shogun was known for having great cardio).

When Shogun was in better shape this happened:

Lol, so Shogun gets every excuse possible from you, but a fight FOUR YEARS LATER means nothing in terms of where Forrest was at himself.

Classic Claude

 

[linvillegorge]

Exactly. And anyone who says Forrest was on the same level as Jim Miller, who never won a title or beat a Top 5 guy in his weight class, is either incredibly stupid, biased or both.

I wouldn't even call Forrest a gatekeeper (which is much better than journeyman). Anyone who wins a title moves beyond that label in my book. Cerrone is the ultimate journeyman.

Wait, what? Cerrone is another perennial top 10 guy who has earned multiple title shots. Sure, he's fallen short of claiming a belt, but he's a helluva lot better than a journeyman. The guy is 35-13 in the UFC and WEC combined. Cerrone is pretty much the highest level gatekeeper there's ever been. He's was right there on the brink of champion status for years and years.

IMO, a guy like Jeremy Stephens would probably qualify as the ultimate high level journeyman. Good fighter. Beaten plenty of good guys. But, at the end of the day, he's a .500 fighter in the UFC.

 

[Mike]

If you don’t use the term journeyman to refer to guys like Forrest, Matt Brown, Jim Miller, etc. that’s fine. Other people do. They are what they are regardless of how they label them. It’s like arguing whether elite is top 7 or top 3. It’s just an opinion.

Words have meanings. Journeyman is not a word used to describe someone that was top ten for a large part of their career.

 

[TheOldMan]

I miss watching Forest fight. Dude always brought it.

 

[Shaquitas EBT]

I disagree,Forrest was able to take advantage of the opportunities given to him...he got injured Shogun,a Rampage that didn't take him seriously,and a handful of other golden ones.Everytime he didn't get a gimmie,he got wrecked.

 

[xelad1]

So was Serra.
So was Bisping.

Yeah, they were rightful champions, but anyone who thinks they were really the best are kidding themselves.

Eh, I take issue with this comparison.

I don't think it was particularly clear at the time Forrest won the belt from Rampage that he would have gotten beaten by every top fighter in the division.

I agree that Forrest wasn't necessarily the 'strongest' fighter in the division at that time... but the belt changed so many times I think LHW 2007/2008 was really a game of hot potato depending on matchups.

Let's look at some of the top 5 (mixing in some of the top 10) fighters in no particular order:
- Rashad Evans
- Quinton Jackson
- Lyoto Machida
- Wanderlei Silva
- Shogun Rua
- Chuck Liddell
- Keith Jardine

By the time Forrest lost his belt he had won against 2 of these fighters and lost to 2. Against Rashad he had a fairly successful fight until his KO, so he wasn't completely outclassed.

Rampage was decidedly not in bad shape, and while their fight was close, Forrest didn't win via flash KO but a steady effective gameplan, against one of the top fighters of that era (who I remind you outclassed Chuck and Hendo on the way to the title).

MMA math doesn't work for a reason, but if we look at the circle of wins / defeats at that time, it's unfair to discredit Forrest's win as a fluke in the LHW division. He was a legitimate top 5 fighter / champion in an era where there was no clear no. 1 until Jon Jones came along. Furthermore I think he would have had a good chance against that era's Chuck and Wanderlei based on where they were in their careers and his performance against 'Page.

By juxtaposition I think it's pretty clear that Bisping would have had very unfavorable matchups against Weidman, Romero, Jacare, Whittaker, Machida etc.

He very clearly exploited Rockhold's poor striking defense / boxing, so definitely won on skill, but we also had far more data on previous performances of his + never saw how he competed against the elite of the elite. Furthermore Rockhold started a pretty aggressive downward slide after his loss which does lower the stock of the win a little, and he arguably lost to a very very very old Dan Henderson.

 

[Hirashin]

Forrest is the LHW champ. Anderson beating him make Andeson the GOAT, it doesn't make Forrest bad.

 

[xelad1]

<Lmaoo><Lmaoo><Lmaoo>

You realize Shogun was nearly one legged for the fight. He battled very serious knee problems and couldnt even train ground fighting and only limited cardio training. That was the worst version of Shogun.

There is a slight reason why he underwent knee surgery (again) after the Forrest fight and looked completely different against Machida...etc. I like an overachiever like Forrest but stay realistic.

Its still a win for Forrest and Shogun really only has himself to blame as he went full Cain Velasquez in his knee rehabs in Brazil before the bout. But Shogun would not cancel a fight. Thats just his style.

This is very silly. You can try and compare the 'best version of x' against the 'best version of y' all you want, but Shogun has been remarkably inconsistent throughout his career. Shogun showed up over a year later and after surgery / rehab etc to an embarrassingly bad fight against a very old and slow Mark Coleman (who himself hadn't fought for 3 years!!!).

A fight where he took Shogun down almost at will a total of 7 times.

What is the best version of Forrest? Is it the version that showed up to fight Rampage? Would that version have schooled Shogun in their rematch? Shogun was also prone to doing well in favorable matchmaking for him. Put him in a match against someone like Chael Sonnen and he might get guillotined.

The fact is that there was no 'dominant' LHW when Forrest won. The belt changed hands from Chuck->Rampage->Forrest->Rashad->Machida->Shogun very quickly.

Depending on styles many of these fighters could have lost to one another given the right circumstances. It is very likely, for instance, that Rashad would have easily LnPd Shogun to a victory, despite Machida schooling him in the wrestling department. Rampage could have also outboxed shogun and outwrestled him due to Shogun's willingness to get in brawls despite Forrest's tactics of leg kicks and LnP working so well.

 

[xelad1]

Slightly harsh but I do think if you ran his career a couple dozen times in a simulator he only wins a belt maybe 2-3 of those times.

He got the Shogun fight off a one-fight winning streak, a decision against Hector Ramirez. That came on the heels of being knocked out by Keith Jardine.

Credit where credit is due: he showed up against Shogun, capitalized on a lackluster debut, and then fought at his best against Rampage. But that was an extremely accelerated path to the belt for a guy whose best win by far was Stephan Bonnar at that point.

I would argue his best win at that point was Chael Sonnen. Chael was fighting LHW at the time and had just come off a win against Babalu. Underrated win... especially considering Chael guillotined Shogun.

Forrest > Chael > Shogun > Machida > Chael > Shogun > Forrest... MMAth ftw.

 

[Fedorer13]

Makes his debut against fucking Dan Severn at age 22.

Saves the UFC with the Bonnar fight

Submits prime Shogun and beats Rampage to win the title in one of the most tactical performances ever by a LHW.

Put everything on the line and fought prime Anderson when everyone was terrified of him. Takes balls

5 wins against 3 former UFC champs. Pure grit and determination, wasn't born as some super athlete, all hard work. Some of the best cardio in LHW history, underrated ground game, and just one of the most likable guys in MMA. Shame his injuries led to his retirement. I am glad the UFC gave him a job.

Your avatar is criminally underrated.

 

[CRuck1980]

I've seen several people here claim that he had some sort of "unbeatable" period when he first came to the UFC.

Never heard that myself. Everybody was saying shogun and wand would destroy him again

 

[Th3Sav4ge]

forrest was great. he def hurt my feelings beating rampage, franklin and shogun though.

 

[Mga223]

Exactly. And anyone who says Forrest was on the same level as Jim Miller, who never won a title or beat a Top 5 guy in his weight class, is either incredibly stupid, biased or both.

I wouldn't even call Forrest a gatekeeper (which is much better than journeyman). Anyone who wins a title moves beyond that label in my book. Cerrone is the ultimate journeyman.

I mean how can you be a gatekeeper if you've been champ?

You're forever a former champ aren't you?

 

[locust rising]

No.

About 95% of Forrest's career consisted in gatekeeping. He was never among the best in the division except for a very brief period of time. He was basicly only relevant in 3 fights: against Shogun, who was making his UFC debut and fought injured, against Rampage (very close fight) and against Rashad, who destroyed him.

Then he got destroyed by Anderson Silva (expected) and was never close to being a contender again. Fought Tito for the umpteenth time, got destroyed by Shogun in the rematch, beat an old Franklin and then reitred.

If anything Forrest is overrated around here because people pretend he was an elite fighter. He wasn't. He was a mid tier fighter who managed to get a couple of good wins. Elite fighters are time proven and for the large majority of his career, Forrest wasn't one of the best, nor even close to it.

He's basicly a one hit wonder.

Going by this standard there are only a hand full of elite fighters, which is fine, but no one is saying forest is among that handful. You proved the TS’s point.

 

[Claude]

If the injuries were major, he wouldn't have gotten cleared.

Major as in life threatening? Yes.

A musculoskeletal injury? You can fight with them, Eg. Tim Kennedy fought with a torn quad.

Griffin and Shogun have the same amount of title defenses: 0

Difference is Shogun had a decorated career before that. Forrest was a fluke.

It took Shogun two times challenging for the belt to get it, it took Griffin one.

We all know why. Robbed against Machida.

I think the biggest disparity in the shape Shogun was in was the athletic commissions and drug testing. You disagree?

That's speculation. What's factual is that he was injured.

The rematch wasn't as competitive because he caught him early. Do you think that is more indicative than almost 3 rounds and a submission? It's MMA, shit goes down like that sometimes.

Forrest got caught by a lot of punches.

 

[Claude]

That not true he had some good name wins before he was in the UFC and from the time he fought Tito/Jardine onwards pretty much everyone he fought was a big name

That's not elite. Being top 5 is.