For the people making excuses for the poor boxing defense in MMA

[CPH]

The striking defence he is using here is nothing like traditional boxing defence...if anything TS should have linked this, as this shows true striking defence that could work better in MMA than the link about Marciano.

The sequence at 0:40 is "nothing like boxing defense"?

 

[TallGHunter]

Boxing you can stand in the pocket and let punches bounce off your elbows and forearms. There is a huge difference between 12 oz and 4 oz gloves; in mma the smaller gloves will slip thru your forearms and connect to the chin. But you knew that right TS?

 

[JayElectra]

The striking defence he is using here is nothing like traditional boxing defence...if anything TS should have linked this, as this shows true striking defence that could work better in MMA than the link about Marciano.

Uh, what? Slipping punches, bobbing and weaving, and rolling punches (all while keeping your weight well balanced) isn't good boxing defense? This isn't typical even for top level Thai boxing unless the Thai boxer in question was also a very proficient western-style boxer (Kamsing was an Olympic gold medalist). There is a clear western-boxing influence in what Kamsing is doing that isn't typical of traditional muay Thai.

 

[MagnusGOAT]

The sequence at 0:40 is "nothing like boxing defense"?

The sequence there is just traditional head-movement defending against a traditional combo. Yes it is very good movement, but this form of head movement has always been in MMA, especially against the rope/cage where you know that if trapped against a rope/cage punches will be coming at you.

I'm trying to defend your link here, and you are trying to say what, that the defence Somrak is using is like the defence Marciano is using? Marcaino is clearly using subtle defence, whereas Somrak is making sure he is completely moving out of the way of any potential strike coming.

 

[JayElectra]

Boxing you can stand in the pocket and let punches bounce off your elbows and forearms. There is a huge difference between 12 oz and 4 oz gloves; in mma the smaller gloves will slip thru your forearms and connect to the chin. But you knew that right TS?

No professional boxers use 12 oz gloves.

 

[King Cobra]

Boxing is the most important aspect of striking in MMA. But that does not mean that techniques transfer directly over from boxing will work in an MMA fight. Head movement is a small problem in MMA, but fighter can't go the length a boxer will go to use head movement as defence because there are so many things a fighter has to focus on other than punches.

Of course but you have those that say that "head movements will not work in MMA or boxing techniques will not transfer well in MMA" and that is where it gets annoying and generic.

Many techniques in Boxing were adapted from the Filipino style called Mano Mano which is a component of Escrima. Bob and weaving along with other defensive techniques of boxing were applied in Mano Mano to defend kicks and even weapons.

 

[That209]

look at how gsp changed the game with a simple jab

The threat of the TD against GSP made him more effective on the feet.

Watch in the Hendricks fight how GSP's jab was almost completely neutralized. It's because Hendricks didn't fear the TD, he was confident in his ability to stop GSP's TD's and also the fact he is a southpaw making it a little easier to block GSP's lead hand and parry, slip his jab and counter. If Hendricks was orthodox, I bet the fight would've played out a lot differently. The fact he is southpaw was a huge deal, believe it or not. Also, the fact he is a hell of a wrestler and was confident in his ability to stop GSP's TD's, which helped Hendricks open up more on the feet than almost everybody GSP had fought because they feared the TD, Hendricks didn't.

Pro boxing and boxing in MMA are very different. Like someone else said, kicks & knees are a huge thing. You can't come in and stand like a normal pro boxer would because you would be eaten up with leg kicks and if you move your head around like a pro boxer, it just doesn't work as well.

Standing like a pro boxing makes you susceptible to leg kicks, and moving your head around like a pro boxer can make you susceptible to, again, leg kicks, but also head kicks and knees. Pat Curran's head kick KO over Marlon Sandro is a good example of trying to move your head like a boxer in MMA doesn't work as well.

Here it is:

That's why moving your head like a pro boxer doesn't work as well in MMA because this can happen to you. Sandro should've kept his hands up, but my point still stands. Pro boxing defense simply doesn't work as well in MMA. Very few guys have been able to come in and move their head like a pro boxer and have real success. That's because they know how to also defend against kicks. They know how to adapt that style to MMA and make it effective and that shit isn't easy because MMA is just a whole different world. The stance has to be very different and the TD threat is there. It's a different world.

The threat of the TD is a huge thing, too. Like I said, the threat of GSP's TD made him more effective on the feet.

Khabib Nurmagomedov's striking is horrendous. But, he is very effective on the feet against guys who are far better than him in the stand-up, and it's because of the threat of the TD. It changes everything.


You need to learn the differences between the two. Talking about Marciano's movement and comparing it to poor boxing defense in MMA is complete nonsense. MMA is a whole different world. The boxing aspect of MMA is very different than professional boxing.

If GSP never went for TD's and only looked to strike, he wouldn't have been nearly as effective. His opponent's would've known he isn't going for the TD and they would've opened up more against him. The fact GSP will take his opponent whenever he gets the chance really changes everything. GSP outstruck better strikers on the feet because of it. In pure striking, they would whup his ass. In MMA, GSP dominates them even at their own strength.

There is no comparison between the two. Go do some research about the differences of boxing in MMA and pro boxing. It's a whole different game and you need to understand that.

We've seen better strikers get handled by lesser strikers on the feet many times in MMA. The threat of the TD is a huge factor. How you didn't understand this is amazing to me. Comparing MMA boxing and pro boxing is ridiculous.

Go watch the fights and do some research. Until then, you shouldn't even post in your own thread because you're only going to embarrass yourself due to your lack of knowledge on the sport of MMA.

 

[King Cobra]

Boxing you can stand in the pocket and let punches bounce off your elbows and forearms. There is a huge difference between 12 oz and 4 oz gloves; in mma the smaller gloves will slip thru your forearms and connect to the chin. But you knew that right TS?

This is the stupidest shit I read on here yet especially being that nobody wears 12 ounce gloves in pro boxing.

Also you can use your foreman to block punches which is what they do in boxing too.

 

[Marc A]

Boxing you can stand in the pocket and let punches bounce off your elbows and forearms. There is a huge difference between 12 oz and 4 oz gloves; in mma the smaller gloves will slip thru your forearms and connect to the chin. But you knew that right TS?

Does that rationale also apply to the pro boxers using 8oz gloves which assume you also now they use right ?

 

[JayElectra]

The sequence there is just traditional head-movement defending against a traditional combo. Yes it is very good movement, but this form of head movement has always been in MMA, especially against the rope/cage where you know that if trapped against a rope/cage punches will be coming at you.

I'm trying to defend your link here, and you are trying to say what, that the defence Somrak is using is like the defence Marciano is using? Marcaino is clearly using subtle defence, whereas Somrak is making sure he is completely moving out of the way of any potential strike coming.

Are you basing all boxing defense on what Rocky Marciano (a pure pressure fighter known for having an ATG chin, but not known for his defensive ability) did (even so, I'd argue there are clear similarities in some of what Marciano and Kamsing did). If you want a better illustration of similarities between some genuinely good defensive boxers and Kamsing, you can look at someone like a Wilfred Benitez.

 

[MagnusGOAT]

Of course and I agree. But you have those that say that "head movements will not work in MMA or boxing techniques will not transfer well in MMA" and that is where it gets annoying and generic.

I don't think the argument is that headmovement or techniques doesn't work it's just that your more likely to get taken-down or caught with different types of strikes if you are just using boxing techniques in a MMA fight.

 

[CPH]

The sequence there is just traditional head-movement defending against a traditional combo. Yes it is very good movement, but this form of head movement has always been in MMA, especially against the rope/cage where you know that if trapped against a rope/cage punches will be coming at you.

I'm trying to defend your link here, and you are trying to say what, that the defence Somrak is using is like the defence Marciano is using? Marcaino is clearly using subtle defence, whereas Somrak is making sure he is completely moving out of the way of any potential strike coming.

I have no idea what you're trying to do, to be honest.

The Somluck vid was in response to the usual "boxing defense no work vs kicks and knees" cliche BS

...to which you responded: "The striking defence he is using here is nothing like traditional boxing defence". Now it's on to "(Somluck's defense) is just traditional head-movement defending against a traditional combo"

..and: "Marcaino is clearly using subtle defence, whereas Somrak is making sure he is completely moving out of the way"

My point is and always has been that basic boxing defense is very applicable to an environment where kicks, knees and elbows are allowed. If you agree with this, let's just move on.

 

[King Cobra]

The striking defence he is using here is nothing like traditional boxing defence...if anything TS should have linked this, as this shows true striking defence that could work better in MMA than the link about Marciano.

Sorry but you're totally wrong there. I don't get what one means by "traditional boxing" when in fact Boxing has a many different variables of techniques especially with defending punches. The defense technique in that sequence has been applied by many boxers in pro boxing.

Plus many Muay Thai stylist have been training in Western Boxing to learn more how to defend against punches.

 

[MagnusGOAT]

I have no idea what you're trying to do, to be honest.

The Somluck vid was in response to the usual "boxing defense no work vs kicks and knees" cliche BS

...to which you responded: "The striking defence he is using here is nothing like traditional boxing defence". Now it's on to "(Somluck's defense) is just traditional head-movement defending against a traditional combo"

..and: "Marcaino is clearly using subtle defence, whereas Somrak is making sure he is completely moving out of the way"

My point is and always has been that basic boxing defense is very applicable to an environment where kicks, knees and elbows are allowed. If you agree with this, let's just move on.

Agree, but the debate is not as black and white as that, as pure boxing defence would never work in an MMA fight and also when you include the aspect of of grappling it becomes a completely different argument all together.

 

[King Cobra]

I don't think the argument is that headmovement or techniques doesn't work it's just that your more likely to get taken-down or caught with different types of strikes if you are just using boxing techniques in a MMA fight.

But each defensive technique correlates with the offense that is being applied.

A takedown defense is a wrestling move. Checking leg kicks is a Muay Thai move. Those defensive techniques correlates with the offense being applied which comes from the style that the offense and defense relates too.

So therefore Boxing techniques is just as applicable when it comes to defening punches as takedown defense is when it comes to defending a wrestling move like a double leg or a ankle pick.

Also, much of the techniques in boxing was adapted from the Filipino style of Mano Mano which is a empty hand component of Escrima. The Americans in the early 1900s learned how to bob and weave and other skillsets you see today from the Filipinos who would use these techniques to defend not just punches but also kicks and weapons.

Thus this is proof that many boxing techniques are indeed applicable in MMA. This has been proven countless times already in MMA fights. The problem is that when a boxing defensive technique is successfully applied in MMA, the haters will then go and say "OH THAT IS NOT BOXING".

 

[MagnusGOAT]

Sorry but you're totally wrong there. I don't get what one means by "traditional boxing" when in fact Boxing has a many different variables of techniques especially with defending punches. The defense technique in that sequence has been applied by many boxers in pro boxing.

Plus many Muay Thai stylist have been training in Western Boxing to learn more how to defend against punches.

Okay, I haven't put my point across very well here but to some it up what I'm trying to say is this.

There is always a place to use head movement, and at the sequence we are discussing in the video was a perfect time. And ofcourse Thai fighters have to learn western defence, because boxing is a big part of the sport, and if they want to do well against the big punchers they have to know how to defend against them. My argument here is that having boxing defence does not mean good MMA defence because high level boxing defence does not work at all time in a fight.

But each defensive technique correlates with the offense that is being applied.

A takedown defense is a wrestling move. Checking leg kicks is a Muay Thai move. Those defensive techniques correlates with the offense being applied which comes from the style that the offense and defense relates too.

So therefore Boxing techniques is just as applicable when it comes to defening punches as takedown defense is when it comes to defending a wrestling move like a double leg or a ankle pick.

Also, much of the techniques in boxing was adapted from the Filipino style of Mano Mano which is a empty hand component of Escrima. The Americans in the early 1900s learned how to bob and weave and other skillsets you see today from the Filipinos who would use these techniques to defend not just punches but also kicks and weapons.

Thus this is proof that many boxing techniques are indeed applicable in MMA. This has been proven countless times already.

You are literally arguing the same point I am but with a little more bias towards boxing. OFCOURSE you need punch defence, but what I am saying is that you can't fight with just boxing defence in an MMA fight because it wouldn't work against everything. There is a time and place for everything, but fighting like Marciano from opening bell to closing in an MMA fight would not be the right choice.

 

[King Cobra]

Okay, I haven't put my point across very well here but to some it up what I'm trying to say is this.

There is always a place to use head movement, and at the sequence we are discussing in the video was a perfect time. And ofcourse Thai fighters have to learn western defence, because boxing is a big part of the sport, and if they want to do well against the big punchers they have to know how to defend against them. My argument here is that having boxing defence does not mean good MMA defence because high level boxing defence does not work at all time in a fight.



You are literally arguing the same point I am but with a little more bias towards boxing. OFCOURSE you need punch defence, but what I am saying is that you can't fight with just boxing defence in an MMA fight because it wouldn't work against everything. There is a time and place for everything, but fighting like Marciano from opening bell to closing in an MMA fight would not be the right choice.

Okay I understand what you're saying. In MMA you really have to be more on point in defending everything from punches to kicks to takedowns which makes it harder.

 

[MagnusGOAT]

Okay I understand what you're saying. In MMA you really have to be more on point in defending everything from punches to kicks to takedowns which makes it harder.

Pretty much that. That you can't concentrate on being the best boxer, or the best kickboxer, or the best wrestler. You have to focus on being the best.

 

[NaughtyBoy]

People in boxing tend to ducking way down almost to the point of having the face below their waist. In MMA you get a nice knee right in your face by ducking that way.

 

[TallGHunter]

This is the stupidest shit I read on here yet especially being that nobody wears 12 ounce gloves in pro boxing.

Also you can use your foreman to block punches which is what they do in boxing too.

Not a big boxing fan, so don't know what they fight with, but the principle is the same. Sparred enough with both boxing and mma gloves to tell you absolutely it is easier to block punches from boxing gloves, where mma gloves slips thru. Obviously you've never strapped either on or you would know.