Finland ends experiment with universal basic income

[TheGreatA]

It was never meant to be anything more than a 2-year experiment.

Not like the costs are that huge when we're talking about only 2000 people. The regular unemployment/social welfare benefits that those people are subjected to, are probably numerically larger than the "basic income" that they were given (only 500 or so dollars).

The idea was that the basic income would give people more incentive to find work, to prevent situations where people would rather stay unemployed than risk losing benefits by having a low-end job. The level of bureaucracy is pretty expansive at this point, and the number of different social benefits that people can apply for, have gotten out of hand. Having a basic income, rather than a dozen different social benefits, could've served to decrease the level of bureaucracy involved, cutting costs in some regards while increasing them in others.

It was a decent idea but it obviously needs some work. I would make it so that only "unemployed" people can apply for it, and pay them for a 1 or 2-year term, to see if there are any results. 500 dollars or so, at the end of the day, is not that big of a deal. You still need some money on top of that if you really want to live properly, since the costs of living are pretty high. 500 dollars doesn't even cover up a month's rent in most places. You'd still need 200-300 extra dollars for food, and another 200-300 dollars for any recreational activities.

Living in this country with less than 1000 dollars per month, is to live without food, or a house to live in.

 

[Andy Capp]

It was never meant to be anything more than a 2-year experiment.

Not like the costs are that huge when we're talking about only 2000 people. The regular unemployment/social welfare benefits that those people are subjected to, are probably numerically larger than the "basic income" that they were given (only 500 or so dollars).

The idea was that the basic income would give people more incentive to find work, to prevent situations where people would rather stay unemployed than risk losing benefits by having a low-end job. The level of bureaucracy is pretty expansive at this point, and the number of different social benefits that people can apply for, have gotten out of hand. Having a basic income, rather than a dozen different social benefits, could've served to decrease the level of bureaucracy involved, cutting costs in some regards while increasing them in others.

It was a decent idea but it obviously needs some work. I would make it so that only "unemployed" people can apply for it, and pay them for a 1 or 2-year term, to see if there are any results. 500 dollars or so, at the end of the day, is not that big of a deal. You still need some money on top of that if you really want to live properly, since the costs of living are pretty high. 500 dollars doesn't even cover up a month's rent in most places. You'd still need 200-300 extra dollars for food, and another 200-300 dollars for any recreational activities.

Living in this country with less than 1000 dollars per month, is to live without food, or a house to live in.

It sounds like it would be much different in Finland where there are so many social programs, but at least in Canada, there is a genuine dilemma faced by some people on any type of social assistance. Due to costs involved with working a full-time job, say, daycare, transportation, lunch (whether you take it from home or not), workplace acceptable clothing, and tax deductions, net income might actually be lower or about the same, as when on some type of assistance. I personally don't think that's an excuse for an able bodied person to not work, but I can understand it. This is where higher minimum wages, transportation and daycare assistance, and low wage supplements may play a valuable role. The ideal thing, imo, would be to give the working poor the extra income (to arrive at a minimum basic income) and just ensure the chronically unemployed don't end up homeless.

 

[Breakfast Bar]

Interesting was that $685 on top of social security or just that?
In Germany the minimum you get from the government as social security is around 400 Euros.
That is if you still live with your parents otherwise you get money for a flat as well (within a certain budget) and other benefits.

But those benefits are also subject to cuts if you don't seek employment.

The language that they randomly selected 2000 people who were jobless, and assumedly already receiving whatever typical benefits they had, makes me assume that the $685 was on top of anything else. But the article doesn't state that explicitly or give an idea of what the aggregate distributions to these people were. In general, the benefits are very high in Scandanavia.

 

[snakedafunky]

The language that they randomly selected 2000 people who were jobless, and assumedly already receiving whatever typical benefits they had, makes me assume that the $685 was on top of anything else. But the article doesn't state that explicitly or give an idea of what the aggregate distributions to these people were. In general, the benefits are very high in Scandanavia.

I am just wondering because that sounds low just like social benefits.
When I think about basic income I would think about the 1000-15000 Euro range.
Sort of the same amount you would get with minimum wage.

 

[Breakfast Bar]

Considering that "reality" appears to be the optics associated with free money as opposed to any fiduciary concerns, this amounts to a misfire.

And just to illustrate how shit Fox News is, here's the crux of the NY Times article that it editorializes.



Fox News would have you believe that they ran out of money and freaked out. The reality is that it was an experiment to begin with and that they're using the results to revamp their social services programs.

The initial program was set to run for two years and then be expanded (http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/02/news/economy/finland-universal-basic-income/index.html). It ran for 16 months and then was abandoned. It's fair to say that the program didn't work as intended. I'm assuming that both the NYT and the Finnish government would have been aware that there were other social benefits that were being given out to unemployed people when they started the program. Do you believe that they cut both the duration and expansion of the program and then considered it a success or do you think that they are making excuses?

 

[KidBaize]

I too will be interested in the findings. I believe the Ontarion Premier is looking to start a pilot program too. It would be nice to compare the two.

Correct. The program started a year ago. Details below.

https://news.ontario.ca/mcss/en/2017/04/ontarios-basic-income-pilot.html

 

[Falsedawn]

The initial program was set to run for two years and then be expanded (http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/02/news/economy/finland-universal-basic-income/index.html). It ran for 16 months and then was abandoned. It's fair to say that the program didn't work as intended. I'm assuming that both the NYT and the Finnish government would have been aware that there were other social benefits that were being given out to unemployed people when they started the program. Do you believe that they cut both the duration and expansion of the program and then considered it a success or do you think that they are making excuses?

Did you read the translated article posted in the thread from Kela?

Even without that article, do you deny that Fox News editorialized the article to project the image of financial concerns when there were none?

 

[Black Helicopters]

Considering that "reality" appears to be the optics associated with free money as opposed to any fiduciary concerns, this amounts to a misfire.

And just to illustrate how shit Fox News is, here's the crux of the NY Times article that it editorializes.



Fox News would have you believe that they ran out of money and freaked out. The reality is that it was an experiment to begin with and that they're using the results to revamp their social services programs.

Nice catch. I heard about this a few days ago but could not read about it. I wondered why it would fail with such a modest amount of money.

 

[Falsedawn]

Nice catch. I heard about this a few days ago but could not read about it. I wondered why it would fail with such a modest amount of money.

All good, no worries.

The main thing from that CNN article you posted is that it was going to be a trial and that it would be expanded of deemed acceptable. That's why I dislike Fox's take on it because even if they stopped giving the UBI, the entire purpose was to be informed on more efficacious ways of delivering support to the needy. Even if it did suffer from cost overrun, based on the original scope of the experiment, the data gleaned would be a success by any stretch of the imagination (being that this is uncharted waters).

Even in the Fox article they spend an inordinate amount of time talking about optics, yet Fox leads off with "now they're gonna cut benefits because it's a failure!!!!!!" I don't like that shit at all.

 

[Black Helicopters]

All good, no worries.

The main thing from that CNN article you posted is that it was going to be a trial and that it would be expanded of deemed acceptable. That's why I dislike Fox's take on it because even if they stopped giving the UBI, the entire purpose was to be informed on more efficacious ways of delivering support to the needy. Even if it did suffer from cost overrun, based on the original scope of the experiment, the data gleaned would be a success by any stretch of the imagination (being that this is uncharted waters).

Even in the Fox article they spend an inordinate amount of time talking about optics, yet Fox leads off with "now they're gonna cut benefits because it's a failure!!!!!!" I don't like that shit at all.

You got me confused brotherman, I didn’t post a CNN article, was just appreciating that you posted a better article

 

[Prokofievian]

The initial program was set to run for two years and then be expanded (http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/02/news/economy/finland-universal-basic-income/index.html). It ran for 16 months and then was abandoned. It's fair to say that the program didn't work as intended. I'm assuming that both the NYT and the Finnish government would have been aware that there were other social benefits that were being given out to unemployed people when they started the program. Do you believe that they cut both the duration and expansion of the program and then considered it a success or do you think that they are making excuses?

It hasn't been abandoned yet. The original timeline is being followed through, and the results will be published after the conclusion of the experiment. It started in january of 2017, and will run until december of 2018 (2 years). And for the last time, it wasn't a program yet: it was an experiment, the results of which have not yet been published. What is happening is that the Finnish government is not opting to extend the experiment, and are intending to pursue a different one.

 

[ultramanhyata]

If you give people free money they won’t look for a job? Who would of thought such a thing was possible.

If humans are primarily motivated by greed and self-interest, as many, particularly on the right, will claim, why would you not expect someone getting X amount from the government to pursue skills and a career that will allow them to make Xx10 or Xx20?

 

[GearSolidMetal]

Real Universal Basic Income, just like Real Communism, hasn't been attempted yet.

 

[ultramanhyata]

So, I ask myself, why do people keep posting Fox News reports that are about articles published by other sources, instead of just posting the original source? Hm.

They're trying to be impartial by keeping everything in the journalistic No Spin zone. These original sources all have ideological agendas. Fox just does the dry reporting and let's each reader or viewer decide for themselves.

 

[Falsedawn]

You got me confused brotherman, I didn’t post a CNN article, was just appreciating that you posted a better article

Oof, yeah lol. I thought you were Breakfast Bars. That damn name and av combo is lethal.

 

[JonnyRingo84]

Governments should stop trying to "engineer society".

Just protect us and our property and then leave us alone.

so when elon musk makes a machine that will do your job, and your neighbor's job, and their neighbor's job, will you still feel the same way?

 

[Bloodworth]

That could have been easily predicted.

Just read Osama bin ladens body guard gets 1,800 a month and cannot be deported .

 

[Falsedawn]

If humans are primarily motivated by greed and self-interest, as many, particularly on the right, will claim, why would you not expect someone getting X amount from the government to pursue skills and a career that will allow them to make Xx10 or Xx20?

>Humans are motivated by greed and self interest

>If we cut corporate taxes, the wealth will trickle down due to the benevolent job creators hiring more people

 

[ultramanhyata]

The only experiment they are willing to take is tax cuts for the rich. Which is a tried and failed method already.

Or maybe guys like you need to learn the discipline of delayed gratification. You don't plant an acorn in the back yard on Monday and expect to put up your tree house on Friday.

 

[ultramanhyata]

>Humans are motivated by greed and self interest

>If we cut corporate taxes, the wealth will trickle down due to the benevolent job creators hiring more people

It's not that the job creators are benevolent it's that they have to hire more people in anticipation of the huge demand that will be created for their products and services as soon as the wealth trickles down.