Fighter pay increase. Why?

[Deleted member 587672]

Honestly maybe getting rid of USADA would bring back better athletes than raising pay ever would. We've seen in boxing how more money to top guys leads to constant negotiations and stalling. I was fine with mma 10 years ago, seemed like all the good fighters were pre USADA and they were paid even less. When Conor opened the flood gates and guys started getting paid more, I never saw an increase in quality of fighters in UFC. I've seen more guys sit around and renegotiate just like boxing. I'm going to stop being a fan when it turns into boxing match making where guys only fight cans unless they get a giant contract.

Knowing UFC, they'd swap USADA for another ADA. They went from Freebok to Venum. It's in their approach.

 

[CroCopsLHK]

It's about altruism ultimately. If we aren't virtue signaling like someone said we just want the fighters happier

I can't figure out if it will generate better fights. Pfl always has a million dollars on the line and those fights are fucking awful

But I don't want the people who entertain me to end up broken and impoverished. And yes, I know they don't give a shit about me

 

[DestinedAussie]

Because it’s a disgrace and a joke that Dana and the greedy owners are naming record profits while most UFC fighters are poor and putting their bodies on the line for them.

It’s disgraceful to see how poorly the fighters are treated, how they’re exploited and how much money is made off of it.

i have no idea why Dana’s shills want fighters to get paid peanuts to destroy their bodies. You’d think sherdog is profiting too the way some of these clowns act.

I like to see people treated with respect and paid fairly. I hate seeing blatant examples of greed being slurped up by bootlickers.

It isn't people don't want fighters to be paid more, the reality is there appears to be no reason for the UFC to pay them more. They are generating record revenues and profits while still clearly being the most dominant org. Seems like a pretty good business to me. Unfortunately this is how capitalism works.

Honestly I feel that the issue is a more complicated one than most folks think. I often hear folks bring up fighter unions, but the MMAFA reps (Randy Couture and others), which is in the middle of a 600 year long class action law suit, actually argued AGAINST unions and made the case that they simply want to be treated like true independent contractors instead of "independent contractors", similar to professional tennis players. The Ali Act would apparently encompass more than just the UFC, theoretically, in that it would give fighters the ability to flex their market value (if I recall correctly). I do feel that folks seem to focus a lot on the UFC specifically when it comes to fighter pay -- I remember a couple years back, John Nash talked about the UFC being a monopsony which more or less impacted the whole industry.

As for how the sport would be impacted with better pay? Well, first of all, I care more about these athletes outside of competition than inside competition. But aside from that, YES you most definitely would be getting a better product with more pay to fighters, at least if my own anecdotal evidence has any value. I've trained MMA at too many gyms to count, and MMA fighters are very rarely full time fighters with no other source of income (even UFC fighters). They're typically carpenters, bouncers, retail workers, gym owners, etc. that train full time on top of working full or part time and they many times share a house with other fighters or even live in gyms or with coaches to afford their training.

I don't feel it reasonable that everyone that trains MMA with aspirations of becoming a pro fighter should be able to fight for a living wage, as it just isn't realistic and should be reserved for those with the necessary skills, but that being said, it's still very hard for even high level fighters to fight for a living and it largely impacts their training. More money allows fighters access to better resources for higher level training, self care, nutrition, travel, etc. I see all the time where the limiting factor for fighter progress is money in that they can't afford things that will aid in their career, be it transportation or training. More money would without question improve their overall ability, but I also don't know that such a solution is as easy as it may seem or sustainable.

I don't believe UFC paying more money by iteslf would have a huge ripple effect on the sport outside of their promotion.

I agree there would be no ripple effect outside UFC as Bellator are already spending half their revenue on fighter pay and PFL IMO are spending more than their entire revenue on fighter pay in an effort to grow. They are simply struggling to compete pay wise despite putting a huge amount of their resources into it. Then because they spend so much they don't have the money to do the activities needed to grow marketing wise.

That said I think if you make it to the UFC you should be able to afford to train full time. You have done your time on the regional circuit fighting for pizza money.

I can't substantiate any of the following, but here are a few considerations:

1. More money would attract more talent (e.g. especially 265+ lbs persons)

2. Fighters could access better health case and/or coverage and afford to take fewer risks.

3. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good gimmick, but not everyone is cut out to be a professional entertainer. More money would remove some burden on athletes to become "characters" and place it squarely in the hands of the promotor. UFC used to be better at this IMO.

4. Based on 2 and 3, outside of PPV headliners, match-making could be easier and/or more meritocratic since losing fights would carry less of a financial penalty. Athletes could focus more on their craft and less with brand building and their stock if they were getting paid regardless.

I doubt more money changes attraction of talent. Even increasing the pay other sports still pay huge amounts and have parents happy for their kids to play those sports. In the USA American Football takes those 265lb+ athletes and more UFC pay won't change that.

How would more money place it in the hands of the promoter? Wouldn't it place it more in the hands of the athlete because they are paying them so they would be expecting them to step up in that department. UFC athletes are entertainers, it shows when certain styles of fighter become popular much more quickly because they are entertaining to watch.

Building an athletes brand is a partnership, not just in the UFC but everywhere. Sure the promoters need to tell the stories and sell the fights, but the stories need to be there to sell. If you are boring, nobody wants to interview you etc then you are super hard to sell.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

So there has been another thread recently where it was stated how fighters are getting even less pay than in previous year in terms of pay to revenue (or pay to profits). It has caused yet another outburst of criticism of how bad and stingy UFC is and caused more calls for them to address the issue.

But I haven't really seen opinions and arguments on what benefits it gives to the actual fight game. So what are they? How is this going to benefit the fight game and MMA in general if UFC raises the fighter pay? Surely as a person I would be happy for someone getting paid even more for doing a legal and fair work, but as for MMA fan, what would be the interest?

Will the quality of fights become better? Or fighters will become more cautious, afraid to lose, and losing the win bonus? Will the fights become more frequent, especially between elites and championship ones become more frequent? Looking at boxing, it might not be the case .. People are criticizing lack of motion and championship fights in certain divisions already, as is ..

Will it draw better talent to the MMA? How can we be sure? A lot of fans have an opinion that stars of the past were better than the current ones when the pay wasn't anywhere close to the current numbers..

An argument I saw was that Bellator pays around 50% of revenue to fighters .. So what? They still pay less in actual numbers .. This ratio is only a testament that they are inferior as a promotion and as a business to the UFC. How should that press UFC to pay more, if they are paying more than anyone else already (in general)?

Isn't that the lack of demand in general that is problem and had it not been the case, the other promotions would have been able to pay more, and in turn force the UFC to pay more? But right now it is the UFC that is the main driver in the industry and generates new viewers so they might deserve what they are earning (I don't know anyone who first starting watching Bellator, One, PFL, before starting to watch UFC).

Anyways, what could be the objective benefits for us, MMA fans, if UFC raises fighter pay? So far from what I've seen the motive is "because screw Dana and his snow covered driveway" ..

Bigger pay days will absolutely attract more competitors..and crossover factor

Also it helps fighter afford better training and time to train instead of working jobs while trying to be the world's best... which will make better fighters

Like the Olympics...most top-level athletes are not working full time jobs while preparing for the Olympics games...they are paid by the Olympics program's from there countries to train and focus for the Gold and nothing else...and we see the level thats at the Olympics ...

Better fighter pays also raises the profile of the athletes and opens doors for the sports respect level...think about what admiration and respect guess like Rinaldo get or Messi and there paid a shit ton more and just play soccer and not fight...having well off players/fighters in your sport raises its status as a whole...

 

[Reptile_Bong_Hit]

I doubt more money changes attraction of talent. Even increasing the pay other sports still pay huge amounts and have parents happy for their kids to play those sports. In the USA American Football takes those 265lb+ athletes and more UFC pay won't change that.

Thanks for the discussion, brother! Interesting. I think it depends on the amount of the increase and over how long. I agree that other considerations, like culture, influence what sports athletes choose to compete in. I do think it's naïve to assume that a little more money would be a panacea producing more large athletes in the UFC than in the NFL. On the other hand, higher salaries could elevate that status of UFC fighters in society over time, perhaps leading to cultural changes downstream.

How would more money place it in the hands of the promoter? Wouldn't it place it more in the hands of the athlete because they are paying them so they would be expecting them to step up in that department. UFC athletes are entertainers,...

I think it depends on why a hypothetical salary increase is taking place. I think many believe that salaries should be higher across the board without imposing further conditions on the fighters (based on revenue % alone). I don't see any incentive for the UFC to do this, but if I were a fighter, this would likely be my perspective. Shareholders want more money, the UFC wants more money, it's only natural for fighters to want more money too!

I agree that UFC fighters are entertainers. I recognize the fight game is completely different from other sports (NBA, NFL, MLB, Hockey etc.), but this gets at a fundamental tension: to what extent are UFC fighters professional athletes vs. self-promoters? In the NBA, some players are interesting and some are just kind of boring--but for the most part, their personality has nothing to do with their salary. Their salaries come from their CBA. To the extent that UFC fighters are professional athletes, I think their pay (base salary) should be based on their in-cage performance alone. To the extent they are merely self-promotors, then their brand is dispositive. It will always be both, I just value the sport/martial arts/competition more than the circus--but let me be clear, I enjoy the circus too!

Building an athletes brand is a partnership, not just in the UFC but everywhere. Sure the promoters need to tell the stories and sell the fights, but the stories need to be there to sell. If you are boring, nobody wants to interview you etc then you are super hard to sell.

I think I know what you're saying, and I agree. "Partnership" is a loaded term. If the fighters were really partners, then I think the revenue share for big name PPV headliners would reflect this. I agree that fighters capable of self-promotion should be able to reap the benefits of their efforts. Talented fighters who cannot self-promote (all else being equal) should earn less; but again, to the extent the UFC is a "sport", self-promotion should not be a barrier to a good salary if the promotion can pull their weight and afford to pay more given the amount of sacrifice it takes to be a mixed martial artist.

 

[VonSupervillain]

Not a contradiction, cuz you just made up some rule that A will lead to B.


Stick around the forum some time and actually read it from time to time

It's not a made up rule, it's literally a fact. Look at the highest paid boxers and MMA fighters and compare how often they fight compared to low and mid card guys.

 

[Poirierfan]

We need a fighter pay mega thread so we don’t keep having the same conversation again and again every couple of weeks

I think Sherdog and the media should have none stop fighter pay articles and threads. The UFC stands to make well over 400 million in profit alone this year, yet fighter pay is the same. They averages it out to be around 13% that will go to the fighters, which is criminal imo.

 

[Poirierfan]

Shut the fuck up dude. Jesus Christ.

Didn't read the op, sounds like a doozy though according to your post. Lol

 

[Poirierfan]

Because it’s a disgrace and a joke that Dana and the greedy owners are naming record profits while most UFC fighters are poor and putting their bodies on the line for them.

It’s disgraceful to see how poorly the fighters are treated, how they’re exploited and how much money is made off of it.

i have no idea why Dana’s shills want fighters to get paid peanuts to destroy their bodies. You’d think sherdog is profiting too the way some of these clowns act.

I like to see people treated with respect and paid fairly. I hate seeing blatant examples of greed being slurped up by bootlickers.

Over 400 million in profit alone projected for this year, last year was not even near that much. That's insane, yet most fighters continue to have to work a second job, disgraceful.

 

[DestinedAussie]

Thanks for the discussion, brother! Interesting. I think it depends on the amount of the increase and over how long. I agree that other considerations, like culture, influence what sports athletes choose to compete in. I do think it's naïve to assume that a little more money would be a panacea producing more large athletes in the UFC than in the NFL. On the other hand, higher salaries could elevate that status of UFC fighters in society over time, perhaps leading to cultural changes downstream.



I think it depends on why a hypothetical salary increase is taking place. I think many believe that salaries should be higher across the board without imposing further conditions on the fighters (based on revenue % alone). I don't see any incentive for the UFC to do this, but if I were a fighter, this would likely be my perspective. Shareholders want more money, the UFC wants more money, it's only natural for fighters to want more money too!

I agree that UFC fighters are entertainers. I recognize the fight game is completely different from other sports (NBA, NFL, MLB, Hockey etc.), but this gets at a fundamental tension: to what extent are UFC fighters professional athletes vs. self-promoters? In the NBA, some players are interesting and some are just kind of boring--but for the most part, their personality has nothing to do with their salary. Their salaries come from their CBA. To the extent that UFC fighters are professional athletes, I think their pay (base salary) should be based on their in-cage performance alone. To the extent they are merely self-promotors, then their brand is dispositive. It will always be both, I just value the sport/martial arts/competition more than the circus--but let me be clear, I enjoy the circus too!



I think I know what you're saying, and I agree. "Partnership" is a loaded term. If the fighters were really partners, then I think the revenue share for big name PPV headliners would reflect this. I agree that fighters capable of self-promotion should be able to reap the benefits of their efforts. Talented fighters who cannot self-promote (all else being equal) should earn less; but again, to the extent the UFC is a "sport", self-promotion should not be a barrier to a good salary if the promotion can pull their weight and afford to pay more given the amount of sacrifice it takes to be a mixed martial artist.

The bigger problem in terms of attracting those athletes you are imaging isn't actually UFC pay. It is regional pay. Most fighters need to fight approximately 10 fights over 3-4 years for virtually nothing to get to the point you start to make any money worth talking about. That is a huge investment. Boxing currently offers some eye watering pay days but I don't think they are successful at draining athletes from traditional sports. I don't expect the culture to change towards fighting v other sports for parents, in fact with all the medical research I expect it to get worse.

It is super hard to compare to NBA salaries because the top athletes agreed to have their pay capped in order to help other athletes. Lots of players on max contracts could be earning many multiples of what they are earning on an open market. It results in lesser players being "overpaid" relative to star players. In fact some players get lucky and get insane contracts because of salary cap issues (sometimes signing a player for more than they are worth because if they don't they are capped and can't sign a replacement). Can you imagine Conor agreeing to cap his pay? lol He would leave the UFC rather than agree to that.

I agree on the circus being a primary driver is frustrating. But the reality is UFC gets very little main stream coverage when there isn't a circus to go with it. Press coverage is worth way more than paid marketing.

I used partnership as a loaded term, because headliners of the PPV do get revenue share. It it up to them to sell the card and that incentive is reflective of that interest. It is kind of interesting how irrelevant the rest of the card is when it comes to marketing. I know some people complain about the depth of UFC cards at times, but when you compare it to boxing cards they are insanely deep.

 

[Azure]

Too Long Did Not Read. And I still don't care because the grown up adults that are UFC fighters are willingly signing the contract and agreeing to the amount that they are getting paid.

 

[Dreyga Hates You Sherbums]

I think Sherdog and the media should have none stop fighter pay articles and threads. The UFC stands to make well over 400 million in profit alone this year, yet fighter pay is the same. They averages it out to be around 13% that will go to the fighters, which is criminal imo.

Why? How will that change anything? Getting mad on the internet is useless

The only people who can do anything about it is the fighters.

It’s nothing but rage porn

 

[SaigeVanZant]

Most fighters get paid what they deserve. Does someone like Jack Hermannson deserve to make 500k a fight?

 

[TonyRolo]

The argument has to be clear: do the people who want better fighter pay want it for the UFC or for MMA in general? How much should this be? WHY do you think it is too little, because of individual fighters not getting paid enough or the totality of fighters aside from the cream of the crop getting a very little percentage of profits?

Everyone trashes the UFC for their pay but the other organizations are the same. A big reason why guys leave the UFC and go to ONE PFL or Bellator and get better pay is because those organizations HAVE to give them more than what they are worth to the UFC. It is not an absurd amount, but it is enough that the UFC says "well we can afford to pay them that if we wanted them back but it is not worth it because our roster is so big"

People need to stop making this conversation a MORAL conversation and make it a FINANCIAL and BUSINESS conversation. And I believe that is what OP is trying to question.

It is possible that if the UFC decided to increase their pay substantially they would gain their monopoly back with all the fighters that would come to them, and with less competition it would actually lead to less MMA fighters in major organizations which means they're making less money.

Let's be honest: people who argue for fighter pay are arguing for the top 1% of MMA athletes in the world to make more money and don't care about the undercard fighters on smaller organizations. I am not saying that they are wrong at all in fact in my opinion it is ridiculously low the amount they are getting paid but I think the conversation needs to be more honest and intellectual versus being so emotionally charged.

The proper way to make change is to find a way for the change to be realistic not call everyone that disagrees with you names.

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

Everyone trashes the UFC for their pay but the other organizations are the same.

Well that's obviously wrong.

 

[TonyRolo]

Well that's obviously wrong.

Wrong about everyone trashing the UFC for pay? Or other organizations being the same way??

 

[Quietus]

because they're employees helping making the company hundreds of millions of dollars, and UFC is turning record profits year over year and growing globally, so the fighters should be getting paid a lot more than they were 10 or 20 years ago before the ESPN/WME deal. That's pretty common sense, the only reason they aren't is lack of a union or Ali act and Dana being a sociopathic criminal.

The same doesn't exactly apply to other promotions because those promotions are making a fraction of what the UFC earns off the backs of the fighters. If you can't understand this, apply it to your own life: if your job was paying $60k a year 10 years ago, and the company you work for QUADRUPLED in valuation and earnings in that time and the guys at the top are making way more profit while you're still making $60k a year, something is seriously wrong.

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

It's not a made up rule, it's literally a fact. Look at the highest paid boxers and MMA fighters and compare how often they fight compared to low and mid card guys.

Are you only thinking of the highest end fighters? Who are the most active fighters then? All the underpaid ones? Like Cowboy, Rothwell, Arlovski, Guida, and Olienik? Yeah, those chump change fools? Cowboy was making like 200k to show alone by the end of his career and over 150k per fight at his most active?

 

[Prologue]

If someone isn't willing to work 3 jobs and post nudes on OnlyFans, do they really want to be a fucking fighter?

This isn't a career, its an opportunity.

 

[Sasha]

So there has been another thread recently where it was stated how fighters are getting even less pay than in previous year in terms of pay to revenue (or pay to profits). It has caused yet another outburst of criticism of how bad and stingy UFC is and caused more calls for them to address the issue.

But I haven't really seen opinions and arguments on what benefits it gives to the actual fight game. So what are they? How is this going to benefit the fight game and MMA in general if UFC raises the fighter pay? Surely as a person I would be happy for someone getting paid even more for doing a legal and fair work, but as for MMA fan, what would be the interest?

Will the quality of fights become better? Or fighters will become more cautious, afraid to lose, and losing the win bonus? Will the fights become more frequent, especially between elites and championship ones become more frequent? Looking at boxing, it might not be the case .. People are criticizing lack of motion and championship fights in certain divisions already, as is ..

Will it draw better talent to the MMA? How can we be sure? A lot of fans have an opinion that stars of the past were better than the current ones when the pay wasn't anywhere close to the current numbers..

An argument I saw was that Bellator pays around 50% of revenue to fighters .. So what? They still pay less in actual numbers .. This ratio is only a testament that they are inferior as a promotion and as a business to the UFC. How should that press UFC to pay more, if they are paying more than anyone else already (in general)?

Isn't that the lack of demand in general that is problem and had it not been the case, the other promotions would have been able to pay more, and in turn force the UFC to pay more? But right now it is the UFC that is the main driver in the industry and generates new viewers so they might deserve what they are earning (I don't know anyone who first starting watching Bellator, One, PFL, before starting to watch UFC).

Anyways, what could be the objective benefits for us, MMA fans, if UFC raises fighter pay? So far from what I've seen the motive is "because screw Dana and his snow covered driveway" ..

While I understand what you're saying, I want to point out first that people asking a raise in fighter's pay aren't necessarily willing to improve the "fighting game" by doing so, they are mainly concerned about the fighters well-being, especially unknown prospects, given the fact they are already doing a brutal job. The fact that the UFC has a shitload of money, in that context, is obviously annoying.

Of course, I get the idea : with a ridiculously low pay, they'd have to fight more often in order to earn enough money for a decent life. They'd fight like maniacs just for a win bonus. But it's kinda... super cynical isn't it ? I know they chose that job, they aren't fighting at gun point, but they still deserve dignity.

Of course, as MMA fans, not everyone likes the "sport" for the same reasons. Some are really involved, and have a lot of respect for fighters, while others don't give a shit and just want to see people get mauled. I'm not here to judge.

Your arguments, about fighters having to fight less often if they were paid more, or them being more cautious, etc, may actually be valid, although I think that more money would mean more talented fighters transitioning to MMA, more people learning MMA from a young age. I think it might benefit the sport, at some point.

And yeah, fighters earning more would just be good for them. You also could argue that if they were paid better, some might fight more often : would you get in the octagon for 10k ? I wouldn't (because I have other skills to sell, which isn't the case for a lot of fighters). For 100k, yeah, I would probably do it. Who knows, I might be the next JBJ (no) (Edit :I'm working on being the next McGregor though, my cocaine regimen is working ultra great).

I think more money could be an incentive to get more prospects, better prospects, more competitive divisions.

Note that I'm neither a pro fighter, nor a businessman, so it's only speculations.
I'm a sherdogger though, so my points are very certainly valid.