Fedor strengths and weaknesses and his skillset in the UFC today (Long Thread)

[Pankration never dies]

I appreciate the well thought out breakdown, but I respectfully disagree in regards to HW evolution technically. Now, I don’t think prime Fedor would “crush” everyone; after all, he didn’t even back then. He had competitive fights sometimes, or had to make a comeback sometimes, or whatever.
I agree with you that HWs overall are bigger.
—Ngannou is 10 years into his career and only recently started adding wrestling. He’s a mere blue belt in BJJ.
—Lewis is a striker with no real wrestling or grappling.
—Tuivasa is a striker with no real wrestling or grappling.
—Gane is a Muay Thai fighter with no real wrestling, and a literal white belt on the ground.
—Rozenstruik is a kickboxer with no real wrestling or grappling.
—Even a great HW like Stipe had wrestling and boxing, but no real grappling to speak of, doesn’t have a BJJ belt that I’m aware of and hasn’t even attempted a sub as far as I can recall.
—Even Chris Daukaus has a BJJ black belt but has never won a fight by submission and in fact has lost by submission; he comes from “Daukaus Boxing” but got stopped by wrestler Curtis Blaydes in his last fight.

If prime Fedor fought dudes like Cain, DC, or JDS in prime he may lose some of those. But if he was just here competing in today’s HW division, I think he’d do just fine.

I also appreciate your answer. Considering the points you make :

It is true that Lewis is awfully unidimensional, but he is not a good representative of the division, his ephemeral top-ranking was due to a fluke against Blaydes who was the better fighter and got caught. Black Beast is progressively returning to his true ranking and status as a journeyman.

Also true that Rozenstruik and Tuivasa are lacking in wrestling/grappling from what we have seen (yet they have been outgrappled by excellent grapplers such as Blaydes and Spivak, so it’s not that shameful), but in this they are similar to many old pure MMA strikers (Hunt who trained many years with Tuivasa, etc.).

The best members of the division (N’Gannou, Stipe, Gane, Blaydes, Aspinall, Pavlovich probably) are well-rounded, they don’t master 100% all the aspects of MMA of course, but nobody really does (one could say that Nogueira and Werdum had no wrestling, Cro Cop and Cain no BJJ, that Fedor was very good in all aspects of MMA but elite in neither one, etc.).

D1 Fabricio Werdum demonstrating some high-IQ wrestling, replicate with caution.

—Ngannou is 10 years into his career and only recently started adding wrestling. He’s a mere blue belt in BJJ.

Largely true for BJJ, but not for wrestling from what we know : he trained wrestling (defensively sure, but why working on offensive wrestling when you can behead everyone standing ?) since the beginning of his MMA career in Paris and he had great success with his TD defence (he manhandled Overeem in the clinch, who had manhandled Lesnar before, dealt with Blaydes, etc.).

The big exception is the first fight with Stipe, but it was largely due to a mental failure : Francis bought his own Ford Escort hype, became arrogant with the title in sight and stupidly threw his “countering” gameplan out the window to headhunt recklessly, overextending, getting taken down at will and gassing.

—Gane is a Muay Thai fighter with no real wrestling, and a literal white belt on the ground.

Disagree here, Gane is still green and has holes in his game, but he is not the equivalent of a white belt in grappling, despite his lack of credentials. As someone mentioned, he has 2 submission wins in the UFC, which is already more than Cain and Dos Santos combined, it was not against elite competition but one (Pessoa) was a BJJ blackbelt. Then he got up against 265+ lbs N’Gannou, who couldn’t GnP him at will because he stayed active on the bottom.


He got taken down by the same N’Gannou sure, but in part because wrestling was the element of surprise in this match-up : after all, Jones got taken down by Gustaffson and Usman by Edwards (ending in mount !).

MMA is only a form of dance after all.

Then Gane also took N’Gannou down, which Overeem, Blaydes and many others couldn’t do. He also has a better clinch game than many other HWs.

One could say that I display some recency bias, but I don’t think Fedor would have a much easier time against Stipe, N’Gannou or Blaydes than against DC, Dos Santos and Cain, but that’s a big debate.

In respectful disagreement.

 

[Natural Order]

Nothing to see here. Just another day of powerhouse @BFoe embarrassing the slack-jawed opinions of @Fioretti and @MartinGibson86.

 

[VAfan]

i'll bet you have the action figure too.

 

[Reffson]

Awesome


Again...



Fedor gave up the most basic single-leg/slide by to a 40 year old MW immediately before getting ko'd.

and

Got Mounted and besmirched by Bigfoot.

and

Thrown onto his head by Randleman.

and


Used ropes to avoid being taken down by MW Lindland.

and

Easily taken down and gave up back to Coleman.

Khabib-esque.

You're a dumbass. Khabib fought little guys his whole career cuz he's a weight bully. Would love to have seen him fight prime Hendo, Bigfoot, Randleman, Werdum, Big Nog, Coleman. Remove head from ass.

 

[TheNinja]

You have a source for Couture being on TRT? I have never heard of him having an exemption, and he always spoke out against it.

Randy was on something for sure. Then again, at that time they all pretty much were unless they didn't want to keep up.

 

[TheNinja]

You're a dumbass. Khabib fought little guys his whole career cuz he's a weight bully. Would love to have seen him fight prime Hendo, Bigfoot, Randleman, Werdum, Big Nog, Coleman. Remove head from ass.

Fedor getting mounted by Bigfoot is like Khabib getting mounted by HW DC or Frank Mir. Some people are either trolls or they don't really understand concepts.

 

[BFoe]

Nothing to see here. Just another day of powerhouse @BFoe embarrassing the slack-jawed opinions of @Fioretti and @MartinGibson86.

You know the drill my man
They reach, I teach

 

[BFoe]

Randy was on something for sure. Then again, at that time they all pretty much were unless they didn't want to keep up.

Oh I agree, I’ve always thought so too. But he never has a TUE for test, and he always spoke out against it. I was just curious if Fioretti actually had a source for that.

 

[Fioretti]

"Physiological" prime isn't even a thing, and even if it was, once again, it all depends on the individual and their lifestyle, genes, training etc. Gymnasts performing their best at around 20 years of age has absolutely nothing to do with on nights or off nights, but more with the fact that gymnasts typically starts training from a very young age and reach their peak potential early, and then start to deteriorate. Exactly how does gymnasts performance go downhill if their strength, speed, reflexes, cardio etc. keeps going up for 5-10 more years? Because they all magically get bored around the same age? No, but because the conditions made them reach their "prime" earlier than the average person.

It's impossible to define a range of "prime" years when you're talking about professional athletes that has been training at an elite level since childhood, there is way too many factors to take into consideration that affects when their bodies start deteriorating.

Do you not know what physiological means?

You have a source for Couture being on TRT? I have never heard of him having an exemption, and he always spoke out against it.

You know the drill my man
They reach, I teach

Brother, your takeaway from that was "source for Randy on TRT?" - What do you think you're teaching? Lol. Randy's claim is: "I boosted my testosterone naturally". It was quite the joke at the time, him being the Natural and all. Come on, friend. You're the one reaching here. Off topic and desperate. Is normal.

 

[Fioretti]

Oh I agree, I’ve always thought so too. But he never has a TUE for test, and he always spoke out against it. I was just curious if Fioretti actually had a source for that.

I didn't say he had a TUE, bud.

 

[BFoe]

I didn't say he had a TUE, bud.

I know you didn’t. You said

TRT helped him do well into his 40s, not his lack of wear and tear. Are you aware of the benefits of TRT?

so matter-of-factly that I was sincerely curious if you had a source for that, or if it was just the same ol thing where we suspect he might’ve been on some shit but we don’t know for sure.
And really, if you’re going to make that your argument in a debate about primes, for why he did well at 43 rather than it being the fact that he didn’t even debut in MMA until age 34 (like Cormier, who likewise performed well at or near 40), then you shouldn’t you be able to back it up?

 

[Lee_]

Brother, you're once again trying to make personal bests equate to physical prime. They're different. However, your example of Werdum being at his personal best between 33-36 helps my point, not yours.



So only 2 out of 6 injuries caused him to be forced out of his physical prime and lose? Another example of someone thinking personal best equates to prime. It doesn't.



Oh, look, another guy thinking personal best/peak equates to prime. Muscle mass, muscle density, and bone mass peaks in males in their early to mid 30s. Muscle strength peaks at around 25 and plateaus (in most) until late 40s and sometimes until 50. Endurance athletes peak in their early to mid 30s, drop off around 37, and can show improvements after that in their early 40s. MMA is an endurance sport. Oops!

Sprinters tend to peak earlier for obvious reasons that I've previously stated.

You guys know I've done threads on the average age for every UFC champ in history for every division, right? I also have a thread for the average age of current MMA champions. Can you guess without looking?

Once again, though, for those in the back: peak individual performance or personal bests are different than physical prime. Try to understand, boys. Read slowly. Look it up maybe?

lol can't come up with any sport examples huh? That's what I thought. Again, we know in major sports 35 is way past their prime, so give me a VERY physical sport (not chess to golf) where notable athletes are peaking at 35, and tell me some examples of those athletes. You can't because you have no idea what you are talking about. ROFL your attempts to explain away why sprinters and ball players "peak early" when you can't come up with any examples to support your point.

BTW, Werdum is better at 35 because he improved his all-around skills through practice; not anything to do with his age. If you know anything about MMA, you know that is why some fighters can improve with age; they improved their skills, and you can see that is why when they fight. Werdum is a much better striker than when he is younger. But again, even in MMA most fighters don't peak at 35. That is only true of powerlifting.

In regular weightlifting, the peak is more like 25:
The median peak age is 26.0 years (95% CI: 24.9, 27.1) for men and 25.0 years (95% CI: 23.9, 27.4) for women, at the 90th percentile of performances. The median peak age was 26.3 years for men (95% CI: 24.5, 29.6) and 26.4 years for women (95% CI: 24.5, 29.6), at the 50th percentile.
Performance Development From Youth to Senior and Age of Peak Performance in Olympic Weightlifting - PMC (nih.gov)

Let's not stop there though:

Generally speaking, athletes start to see physical declines at age 26, give or take. (This would seem in line with the long-standing notion in baseball that players tend to hit their peak anywhere from ages 27 to 30.) For swimmers, the news is more sobering, as the mean peak age is 21.

For Athletes' Peak Performance, Age Is Everything | WIRED

More:
Athletic performance usually peaks before the age of 30, research shows, and declines from there on. And while this may seem more noticeable in guys who were not that good at sports to begin with, more competitive athletes can have a harder time adjusting to their changing bodies.

The Age of Peak Athletic and Sports Performance Has Passed for Most Dads (fatherly.com)

More yet:
These decades have also been a time during which the typical Olympian has become older (Figure 1). Since 1992, the average age of participants increased by two years, from 25 to 27. The median age increased from 23 to 25. This ageing pattern holds true even when comparing sports common to both Olympiads and when excluding football (soccer), which imposes age limits on players. Athletes of all ages participate. In Tokyo, two thirds were in their 20s and about 90% were under 30.

Peak Peformance Age in Sport (cepar.edu.au)

 

[MartinGibson86]

You're a dumbass. Khabib fought little guys his whole career cuz he's a weight bully. Would love to have seen him fight prime Hendo, Bigfoot, Randleman, Werdum, Big Nog, Coleman. Remove head from ass.

No a dumbass is someone who wants to see a LW fight HWs.

Or someone who somehow thinks Hendo was in his prime yet Fedor was past it.


You giys are priceless

 

[MartinGibson86]

Fedor getting mounted by Bigfoot is like Khabib getting mounted by HW DC or Frank Mir. Some people are either trolls or they don't really understand concepts.

So Fedor getting outwrestled by 207 pound Hendo is like Khabib getting outwrestled by whom exactly??

 

[Fioretti]

I know you didn’t. You said

so matter-of-factly that I was sincerely curious if you had a source for that, or if it was just the same ol thing where we suspect he might’ve been on some shit but we don’t know for sure.
And really, if you’re going to make that your argument in a debate about primes, for why he did well at 43 rather than it being the fact that he didn’t even debut in MMA until age 34 (like Cormier, who likewise performed well at or near 40), then you shouldn’t you be able to back it up?

He was clearly on some shit. So was his entire gym. Weird how you're attempting to bypass a decade and a half of military and wrestling that I mentioned, then another decade or so of MMA for Randy. Or does that not count as wear and tear for him? I mean, a decade and a half of combat experience before he even started MMA. Shouldn't he have been out of his prime 5 years before he started? That's what you're insinuating with Fedro, is it not? A decade of competition takes you out of prime? Or does the timer reset when you switch sports? Come on, bro, you're much more intelligent than this, you just get all poop pants when it comes to your favey. DC wrestled too, bud.

lol can't come up with any sport examples huh? That's what I thought. Again, we know in major sports 35 is way past their prime, so give me a VERY physical sport (not chess to golf) where notable athletes are peaking at 35, and tell me some examples of those athletes. You can't because you have no idea what you are talking about. ROFL your attempts to explain away why sprinters and ball players "peak early" when you can't come up with any examples to support your point.

BTW, Werdum is better at 35 because he improved his all-around skills through practice; not anything to do with his age. If you know anything about MMA, you know that is why some fighters can improve with age; they improved their skills, and you can see that is why when they fight. Werdum is a much better striker than when he is younger. But again, even in MMA most fighters don't peak at 35. That is only true of powerlifting.

In regular weightlifting, the peak is more like 25:
The median peak age is 26.0 years (95% CI: 24.9, 27.1) for men and 25.0 years (95% CI: 23.9, 27.4) for women, at the 90th percentile of performances. The median peak age was 26.3 years for men (95% CI: 24.5, 29.6) and 26.4 years for women (95% CI: 24.5, 29.6), at the 50th percentile.
Performance Development From Youth to Senior and Age of Peak Performance in Olympic Weightlifting - PMC (nih.gov)

Let's not stop there though:

Generally speaking, athletes start to see physical declines at age 26, give or take. (This would seem in line with the long-standing notion in baseball that players tend to hit their peak anywhere from ages 27 to 30.) For swimmers, the news is more sobering, as the mean peak age is 21.

For Athletes' Peak Performance, Age Is Everything | WIRED

More:
Athletic performance usually peaks before the age of 30, research shows, and declines from there on. And while this may seem more noticeable in guys who were not that good at sports to begin with, more competitive athletes can have a harder time adjusting to their changing bodies.

The Age of Peak Athletic and Sports Performance Has Passed for Most Dads (fatherly.com)

More yet:
These decades have also been a time during which the typical Olympian has become older (Figure 1). Since 1992, the average age of participants increased by two years, from 25 to 27. The median age increased from 23 to 25. This ageing pattern holds true even when comparing sports common to both Olympiads and when excluding football (soccer), which imposes age limits on players. Athletes of all ages participate. In Tokyo, two thirds were in their 20s and about 90% were under 30.

Peak Peformance Age in Sport (cepar.edu.au)

I never said 35 is peak for anything. 35 is the end of "young adulthood" and typically the end of a man's physical prime, as muscles and bones will start to deteriorate in most in their late 30s. MMA is the most relevant sport, and the only one that matters, where athletes peak at 31-33. Endurance athletes also peak in their early to mid 30s. Are you aware that MMA is an endurance sport?

The links you're referencing are the same exact ones another user attempted (unsuccessfully) to use to prove the same point you're trying to make. The biggest issue is, once again, you're showing examples of event-based individual peak performance reviews, NOT biology or physiological science.

Oddly enough, that user making the same irrelevant posts, was making them in a thread I did as an individual peak performance review specifically for MMA. It's called "Current MMA Champions by Age". Check it out. MMA is a sport. A sport in which the individual peak performance happens to align perfectly with physical prime. These are two different things. Weird, I know, but true.

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

You have a source for Couture being on TRT? I have never heard of him having an exemption, and he always spoke out against it.

I’m speaking out of my ass. I was under the impression he did have an exemption at one point. I’m operation 1000% from memory

 

[Fioretti]

I’m speaking out of my ass. I was under the impression he did have an exemption at one point. I’m operation 1000% from memory

https://www.mmaweekly.com/randy-couture-went-about-trt-the-natural-way

@BFoe

He did it "the natural way" by using Xtreme Couture Advanced Pharmaceuticals. Lol

“That’s the route that I chose to go as an older athlete. I went to a doctor. I got blood tests. I measured where all my hormones were. I started supplement program through XCAP (Xtreme Couture Advanced Pharmaceuticals, Couture’s supplement company) to increase my body’s own production of natural testosterone.”

Natural as fuck, boys.

 

[Chayanne]

Fedor is goat
Small in heavyweight and was the greatest

 

[Lee_]

I never said 35 is peak for anything. 35 is the end of "young adulthood" and typically the end of a man's physical prime, as muscles and bones will start to deteriorate in most in their late 30s. MMA is the most relevant sport, and the only one that matters, where athletes peak at 31-33. Endurance athletes also peak in their early to mid 30s. Are you aware that MMA is an endurance sport?

The links you're referencing are the same exact ones another user attempted (unsuccessfully) to use to prove the same point you're trying to make. The biggest issue is, once again, you're showing examples of event-based individual peak performance reviews, NOT biology or physiological science.

MMA fighters peak later because there are so many different things to learn, so that is an epic fail. Also, lets see where the stats and research is on peaks of UFC fighters, because if you pulled that out of your ass, it is even more meaningless.

No, you don't get to run and hide by bringing up the UFC as "the only relevant sport." You made a claim with zero research to back it up, and zero real life examples of sports with the kind of late peaking you are talking about. We peak in our 20s which all of those articles showed you which you hid from with cheap and uneducated excuses; those articles are a reflection of a thing called science. Stop the nonsense and offer the proof or go home.

 

[The Last King]

I'm loving this honestly. The utterly deranged beliefs in this thread are a joy to read. People truly believing that peak HW MMA performance was achieved only during a 5 year stretch by a doughy 230 pounder in the infancy of the sport. Never to be duplicated. The undisputed fastest HW who ever lived, who couldn't even outrun father time at the age of 30.

Bizarre passive aggressive behavior. In one post you talk about how great Fedor was in another post he was some "doughy guy in the infancy of the sport who couldn't beat father time"??? What's with the bi polar swings?

Cain, DC and BJ Penn were doughy fighters who were are incredible champions and way ahead of their time.

Babe Ruth came around in the infancy of baseball and was still better than 90% of players for the next 50 years. Shaquille O'Neal is the most dominate center ever and there won't be another center who is more athletic and physical than him for the next 100 years, if ever. Fedor was no different than them. Could he have lost to peak Cain or peak Ngannou? Sure. Was he still more skilled than almost every fighter in MMA today? Yes. And there is no theory which can prove otherwise. Only shillish speculation and dishonest stories of "evolution "