Fedor strengths and weaknesses and his skillset in the UFC today (Long Thread)

[HHJ]

JDS was 35 and had won 3 in a row and had just tko'd Lewis.

Reem had won 3 n a row and 6 of 7---the loss being for the title.


Both Coleman wins were elite tho huh?

THE HAMMER

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Do you realize that in time Mirko was in UFC it was the premier juice leage? Have you seen what Overeem became when he came to UFC from Japan? He gained like 80 pounds of pure muscle lol... Did you not notice Brock fucking Lesnar? TRT Vitor? Randy the NATURAL Couture? Sean fucking Sherk and Lavaar Johnson?

UFC only began serious testing in 2015 with the USADA deal. Before that i would argue UFC was the biggest juice org in history of MMA, they even had the biggest juice match in MMA history with Ubereem vs Lesnar...

Overeem is a pretty poor example. He got juiced in Strikeforce and DREAM and then popped in his 2nd UFC fight and then lost to Bigfoot and Travis Browne.

 

[The Penetrator]

Overeem is a pretty poor example. He got juiced in Strikeforce and DREAM and then popped in his 2nd UFC fight and then lost to Bigfoot and Travis Browne.

Yeah ofc but still, to act like Mirko wasnt as good in UFC because he couldnt juice cause of the so strict testing... cmon...

To me it was the adaption to the cage more than anything. Mirkos style was tailor made in the ring - for the ring. It doesnt work in cage, and there never was a cage fighter successful with his style. Mirko did find success later in cage but had to completely change his game, be more clinch heavy, short elbows, gnp guy.

That plus the size and skill of opponents, getting welcomed to the cage by young hungry Gonzaga was pretty scary. Also the multiple surgeries he had before joining the UFC, and even more surgeries after Gonzaga did what he did...

 

[Paul E Gensinger]

And Ngannou lost to Zoumana Cisse and Derrick Lewis.

There'll come a time when the top HWs today will lose to guys they'd never lose to in their prime as well.

Zoumana kept bum rushing him and taking him down. Wish he's done a little better so the UFC could've brought him in.

 

[93confirmed]

Imagine what you could have accomplished in the time it took to make this thread?

 

[Fioretti]

JDS and Cain declined early. What happened with them?

JDS was 35 when he started his current losing streak. He was consistently top 10 until he was 37 or so. Cain lost to Ngannou when he was 37, and was also top 10 until then.

Both of them had losses before then, of course, but losing a fight or two doesn't mean they're out of their prime. It doesn't equate to "decline". It means they lost a fight. You can lose a fight between the ages of 28-35, when you're in your physical prime.

Physical declines due to age typically start around 36-37 in 90%+ of male athletes.

 

[TJ177]

So it sounds like Fedor's peak was for about 5 years, which apparently (according to the Fedor enthusiasts here) coincidentally covered:
A) his first 5 years competing in MMA
B) the peak of heavyweight MMA, despite being filled with guys who had only done it for a few years

Anything that happened after 2005 is after the decline of peak MMA though. Fedor and Nog only started fighting a few years earlier and had already reached the pinnacle of MMA excellence. Today there are fighters like Blaydes and Ngannou who are bigger and stronger and have trained for twice as long but are still sloppy brawlers.

 

[TJ177]

Also love that "peak" Nog was thrown around by untrained football player Bob Sapp and "peak" Crocop was knocked out cold by K1 Randleman but would still walk through today's HW division.

 

[Greyscale]

Cry more sensitive one.

Vadim Nemkov is the best LHW in the world using that 20 year old skillset.

hahaha what sorry a retard. It sure wasn't worth registering that account again.

 

[Megatronlee]

He needs pride drug testing and he will do fine

 

[Megatronlee]

Also love that "peak" Nog was thrown around by untrained football player Bob Sapp and "peak" Crocop was knocked out cold by K1 Randleman but would still walk through today's HW division.

I think Crocop of any kind gets taken down

 

[Typrune Goatley]

So Nog was world champ 2 years after fighting and Fedor 3 years after starting and that's reflective of how deep the division was back then?

Or perhaps people are willing to consider that Fedor and Nog were really well-rounded fighters for their time period and were able to capitalize on a fairly primitive weight division.

Fedor and Nog rose quickly because they won giant tournaments in RINGS. Nog won a 32 man tournament which is why he was immediately pushed in PRIDE and was matched up with Coleman ASAP. Fedor won a couple tournaments in RINGS and quickly ran up a 10-1 record before signing with PRIDE. They first matched him up with Schilt and Herring, which were solid tests, before giving him a title shot against Nog.

 

[Lee_]

Physical declines due to age typically start around 36-37 in 90%+ of male athletes.

Lots of reasons this is untrue. The overwhelming majority of NBA and NFL players have a much shorter prime than that; they decline much sooner. MMA fighters that started young don't have that long usually because 10+ years in the sport will put you past your prime.

Sometimes fighters are in their prime late like Werdum because they improve their skills over the years. It really is all over the map in MMA; you can't lay an age on like that for nearly everyone; it isn't that kind of sport.

 

[Fioretti]

Lots of reasons this is untrue. The overwhelming majority of NBA and NFL players have a much shorter prime than that; they decline much sooner. MMA fighters that started young don't have that long usually because 10+ years in the sport will put you past your prime.

Sometimes fighters are in their prime late like Werdum because they improve their skills over the years. It really is all over the map in MMA; you can't lay an age on like that for nearly everyone; it isn't that kind of sport.

You're talking about peak individual performance, not physical prime, and that seems to be the biggest factor around here. People struggle to separate the two.

The age range does change a bit for different sports, yes. MMA is an endurance sport. Endurance athletes tend to peak in their early to mid 30s. Sprinters and ball players tend to peak earlier because they have less bone density and muscle mass.

A man's physical prime is when their muscle strength, muscle mass, bone density, speed, cardio, and reflexes are at their highest and most efficient points. This is between the ages of 28-35 in 90+% of men on earth. The number, iirc, is closer to 95 or 96%.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

Also love that "peak" Nog was thrown around by untrained football player Bob Sapp and "peak" Crocop was knocked out cold by K1 Randleman but would still walk through today's HW division.

I would love to see you fight a 350 pound NFL player. Nog won by the way.

Cro Cop fought 8x in 2004. He went 7-1, with that one loss to Randleman. He also beat Randleman at the end of that year. If any current fighter went 7-1 in one year, this would be a major accomplishment and only a soyboy with no background in any sport would be bringing up that one loss. Modern fans are so impressed by Holland going 5-0 in one year (which is definitely amazing) however, it pales in comparison to Cro Cop in 2004.

 

[Fioretti]

I would love to see you fight a 350 pound NFL player. Nog won by the way.

Cro Cop fought 8x in 2004. He went 7-1, with that one loss to Randleman. He also beat Randleman at the end of that year. If any current fighter went 7-1 in one year, this would be a major accomplishment and only a soyboy with no background in any sport would be bringing up that one loss. Modern fans are so impressed by Holland going 5-0 in one year (which is definitely amazing) however, it pales in comparison to Cro Cop in 2004.

It's easier to do so when you add in 3 or 4 cans to crush, but yeah, that was a pretty beastly year for my boy. He was 30 that year, by the way.

Mirko bless.

 

[TJ177]

I would love to see you fight a 350 pound NFL player. Nog won by the way.

Cro Cop fought 8x in 2004. He went 7-1, with that one loss to Randleman. He also beat Randleman at the end of that year. If any current fighter went 7-1 in one year, this would be a major accomplishment and only a soyboy with no background in any sport would be bringing up that one loss. Modern fans are so impressed by Holland going 5-0 in one year (which is definitely amazing) however, it pales in comparison to Cro Cop in 2004.

Have no idea what me fighting Bob Sapp or Kevin Holland have anything to do with this, but Crocop beating up a bunch of Japanese pro wrestlers in 2004 doesn't change my opinion of him. He was an exciting one-dimensional fighter that was a draw and pushed accordingly.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

It's easier to do so when you add in 3 or 4 cans to crush, but yeah, that was a pretty beastly year for my boy. He was 30 that year, by the way.

Mirko bless.

I think Oyama was the only "can" that year. Mirko KO'ed him in a minute and then fought Aleksandr Emelianenko less than 4 weeks later.

 

[BFoe]

So many new fans don't realize this. Werdum's prime was like 33 to 36 and that was not his physical prime he just got way better at striking and improved his fight IQ so it more than made up for not being as fast/strong as he was in his mid to late 20s.

And then he popped for PEDs and it suddenly made sense why he looked so good at age 36-37. He improved his striking a ton under Cordeiro as well, don’t get me wrong. But there sure was a world of difference when he returned after USADA suspension.

To pick apart and degrade Ngannous wins but praise Fedor for beating MWs, LHWs and small HWs who were 1 dimesional or at best 2 dimesional is very telling. You are just a hater. To make Fedor seem greater you have to trash other top fighters.

I cannot believe what I am reading. You trash every Ngannou win and play up him losing close decisions but IGNORE Fedor beeing KOd by smaller fighters or finished by Tko, Doctors stoppage and submissions as not valid to his skill set or career.

In your world Fedor could never lose

I don’t consider myself a hater although it’s true that I’m not really an Ngannou fan. I like Ciryl Gane more, but have no problem saying that his resume is even thinner than Ngannou’s.

I think Francis is the most powerful puncher we’ve ever seen, he’s big, strong and athletic, and he’s clearly been working on his wrestling (with almost 10 years in the fight game, it may be too late to expect massive improvements). I do think his wrestling is overrated, or at least that the jury is still out on how good it really is. I find his striking rather sloppy.

Unfortunately for him, he came up at a time when the HW division was awful. The old guard were—well, old—and there weren’t many good prospects on the horizon. It’s improving now. Gane was the first bright spot, then Aspinall, and now there’s Pavlovich. I hoped Romanov would be good too, but losing to Tybura isn’t a good sign. If I rank the best HWs of all time, I do it based on resume and accomplishments and I just don’t think Ngannou’s is all that great. Stipe’s resume has some of the same problems but he has enough good wins plus his number of title defenses that keep him ranked highly. I do often wonder if I rank him too highly and JDS a bit too low though.

I’m well aware that Fedor can lose. I would favor the 2003-2005 version of Fedor over any HW we’ve seen, but prime Stipe, Francis, JDS, Cain, DC, and Overeem could certainly beat him potentially.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

Have no idea what me fighting Bob Sapp or Kevin Holland have anything to do with this, but Crocop beating up a bunch of Japanese pro wrestlers in 2004 doesn't change my opinion of him. He was an exciting one-dimensional fighter that was a draw and pushed accordingly.

Why do you call them a bunch of Japanese pro wrestlers???? Yamamoto had 75 MMA fights when he fought Mirko. Kanehara was 22-12-1. Ron Waterman was 10-1-2. These are not CM Punks like you see in UFC in 2016. Randleman, Aleks and Barnett were great fighters. Only opponent you can criticize that year was Oyama, who Mirko KO'ed in 1 minute and then promptly fought Aleks only a few weeks later.