Fedor strengths and weaknesses and his skillset in the UFC today (Long Thread)

[TJ177]

Who said this?

I'm certain Fedor would have beaten the Ngannou who lost to Stipe and Lewis.

The current Ngannou has improved a lot so that would be more difficult for Fedor.

Outside of Ngannou every other HW is significantly lower level than the elite HWs of the last two generations. This is undeniable.

Lewis, Volkov and Tuivasa wouldn't be top 5 in the Cain-JDS-Werdum- Stipe era.

They woudlnt be top 5 in the Fedor-Nog- Cop era.

Thus suggests there has been a huge decline in talent.

I gotta admit I've lost interest in this one but Lewis and Volkov aren't even top 5 anymore. If you want to try and claim that it's "undeniable" that Gane and Blaydes and Pavlovich are at a significantly lower level then every heavyweight top 5 in the last 2 decades, go for it.

 

[lweiberg]

FEDOR!

 

[TheNinja]

Dub worthy imo.


Rogers being compared to Francis is based on absolutely nothing besides race.

I've said it before in these Fedor circle jerks, but here goes another;

Other than finding AA's notoriously weak chin in the first exchange, what other wuality wins does Rogers have?

You mean both Rogers and Francis don't hit really frickin' hard? And neither is what I would consider a technical striker. Throw it Tai or Hunt instead if you want. Or Carwin. I would say Derrick Lewis is another really heavy hitter who isn't terribly technical (though I think he is pretty skilled). I won't wont say Lewis b/c he is the same color as Brett and Francis.

Dub worthy for trying to race bait. Not everything is thinly veiled racism or sexism or worthy of a SJW to stand up for it.

 

[ServantofGOD]

I wanted to tackle this comment first—and I’m not going to attack you
But dude: Arona has beaten Overeem, Wanderlei, Dan Henderson, Sakuraba, Jeremy Horn twice, Ninja Rua, Guy Mezger… he was very, very good.
Minotauro Nogueira has beaten more ranked HWs than anyone in the sport. His resume is insane: wins over Werdum, Couture, Sylvia, Josh Barnett, Heath Herring 3x, Kharitonov, Cro Cop, Dan Henderson, Ricco Rodriguez, Semmy Schilt, Mark Coleman, Valentijn Overeem 2x, Bob Sapp (the scary version), Volk Han, Gary Goodrige, Jeremy Horn, plus guys like Schaub, and Enson Inoue…PRIDE HW champ, PRIDE interim HW champ, UFC Interim HW champ (back when interim belts actually meant something). His resume is absolutely stellar, and takes a flaming shit all over Ngannou’s.

That’s just…so, so wrong. Ngannou’s resume is very, very thin. JDS’s resume DESTROYS Ngannou’s.

Sorry for the copy/paste here, but I’ve talked about his win over Cain before. Easier to paste rather than re-type.

So I literally give that win no significance at all. It’s not impressive.
—JDS had been declined for years. He’d been alternating wins and losses, and is currently on an 0-5 steak, 4 of these losses by stoppage.
—Arlovski was wayyy past his best. He had a little resurgence courtesy of fighting past-prime Mir, Travis Browne who would only get one more win before going 0-4 and retiring, a post-PED Bigfoot Silva who would go 1-9 after returning, and Brendan Schaub who would only fight one more time (a 1st round stoppage loss to the aforementioned Browne) before retiring. After that, Arlovski went on an 0-5 skid (he was 0-3 going into the Ngannou fight) and pretty much alternated wins and losses until he settled into fighting sub-top 15 guys.
—I’m a big Overeem fan, but obviously he was never the same after pissing hot. Always dangerous, true. But good lord, the guy had been fighting for 18 years and had 60 fights at the time he fought Ngannou. It’s an ok win, but it’s not super special. Beating Reem 6-7 years earlier would’ve been special.
—Stipe handled Ngannou easily when he was in good form. 3 years later at almost 40 years old? Not so much. Stipe hasn’t fought since then so it’s tough to get a sense of where he’s at, but he looked declined and very hittable to me against a fellow 40 year old in DC.

To pick apart and degrade Ngannous wins but praise Fedor for beating MWs, LHWs and small HWs who were 1 dimesional or at best 2 dimesional is very telling. You are just a hater. To make Fedor seem greater you have to trash other top fighters.

I cannot believe what I am reading. You trash every Ngannou win and play up him losing close decisions but IGNORE Fedor beeing KOd by smaller fighters or finished by Tko, Doctors stoppage and submissions as not valid to his skill set or career.

In your world Fedor could never lose

 

[ServantofGOD]

Dub worthy imo.


Rogers being compared to Francis is based on absolutely nothing besides race.

I've said it before in these Fedor circle jerks, but here goes another;

Other than finding AA's notoriously weak chin in the first exchange, what other wuality wins does Rogers have?

Yeah it is just insulting and delusional to think Ngannou is at all similar to Rodgers. They just happen to both be black and hit hard. Ngannou is far more technical

Rodgers literally is a brawler with okay takedown defense due to being strong and 290lbs. He broke or busted Fedors nose with a jab. The part time tire worker.

Ngannou has trained for years with top strikers and displayed footwork, changing levels, kicks, good timing, reactions, and good hands.

I do not know if these people are trolling are just do not understand fighting. To them a technical striker is only someone who does flashy stuff like Anderson or Barboza or Holloway or Gane. It says a lot that technical striker JDS, Overeem and Gane were outstruken by Ngannou but Ngannou haters claim that Ngannou just brawls. Such delusion

Ngannou embodies Conors

Precision beats power and timing beats speed. Only Ngannou is lucky to also have power. In the Stipe 2nd fight or Overeem or many others, Ngannou has accurate precision and great timing, he is hit at times but he times it so that his power shots land before the opponents. That is good striking and I promise you that all of Ngannous fallen opponents regard him as a good striker. Only these delusional fans on their computers think they know more.

 

[Midget Boxer]

As usual the ufc shills are out in full force

 

[Midget Boxer]

You're talking personal best peak performance, not "prime".

Prime is an age range.



Yes, wear and tear are factors for individuals' personal best, but it doesn't alter the age range in which they're in their physical prime. To say he was "out of prime" is incorrect. To say "he wasn't at his best" would be more accurate. To say "he finally faced top 10 guys consistently for the first time in his career and didn't have as much success as he did when facing lesser competition" is 100% factual.

Every fighter deals with mileage and injuries. It wasn't worse for Fedor, and didn't make him age faster than any other human. Physical declines due to age don't start happening naturally until late 30s. That's why there is an age range to depict "prime".

JDS and Cain declined early. What happened with them?

 

[The Last King]

I gotta admit I've lost interest in this one but Lewis and Volkov aren't even top 5 anymore. If you want to try and claim that it's "undeniable" that Gane and Blaydes and Pavlovich are at a significantly lower level then every heavyweight top 5 in the last 2 decades, go for it.

Top 5 HW in 2013


Top 5 in 2005




Derrick Lewis, Tai Tuivasa, Alex Volkov, Pavlovich and Cyril Gane wouldn't be top 5 in 2013 or in 2005.

Every single one of these guys is or was in the top 5 in the last year and multiple guys from this list have have fought for the title and all of them maybe minus Lewis are one win away from being in title contender.

This doesn't mean they're bad fighters but they haven't done enough to assume they're on a higher level than anyone in the top 5 from the last generations.

Gane is fun and I cheer for him but he's a regional level muat Thai fighter with limited grappling and has fought nothing but favorable opponents. Washed up strikers or bummy brawlers with no grappling. Nothing about his skills are superior to Hunt , Cop or Schilt. If he had to fignt guys like Prime Randy, prime Barnett, prime Nog and prime Fedor he'd be on his back in every fight.

Pavlovich is another guy I've been watching for years before he was in the UFC. I'm excited about him but he still hasn't beaten anyone but washed up Derrick Lewis. He got smashed by Econoreem who had lost in the UFC 5 times by the time he beat Pavlovich but it was Pavs debut and I still believe in him but him as he is today wouldn't be top 5 10 years ago or 18 years ago.

Lewis and Tuivasa are brawlers with zero grappling. Nuff said.

Volkov is a good fighter but he wouldn't be in the top 5 in 2013 and he wouldn't be top 5 in 2005. Too many dominant guys in both divisions who would handle him.

This isn't disrespect to these men just an honest assessment and proof that talent has declined at HW over the years.

The same can be said about LHW and MW.

Glover and Jan would never be LHW champs in 2013 and Alex and Izzy wouldn't be MW chamls in 2013. More evidence of decline in talent over the last decade.

 

[ServantofGOD]

This is all you need to see. Mirko was considered one of THE top strikers in many sports but especially MMA. Mirko was lightning fast. But Fedor checked him with ease. Insane.

And this was when Mirko was destroying, with ease, Alex, Barnett, Randleman, and Coleman.

Mikro is 225lbs... With poor grappling.



Gane is 247lbs much taller and jacked with a far longer reach and leg length than Cro Cop

Ngannou is also much taller, just as fast and 270lbs and very hard to takedown. Ngannou had KOd every top fighter he faced basically. Somehow the "brawler" keeps KTFO of more technical strikers like Rozenstruck, JDS, Arlovski, Overeem, etc etc

Blaydes is 260lbs a top level wrestler, good BJJ and hits hard

Ubereem was 270lbs jacked, on horse meat and a K1 Grand Prix champ with elite takedown defense so strong that not even Werdum, Big Foot or Lesnar could take him down. Ubereem tossed 290lb Rodgers to the ground and manhandled Lesnar in the clinch

Prime Werdum 245lbs, 6"4 and already beat Fedor but became an even better striker with improved BJJ submitting Big Nog.

Aspinall is 6"5 Boxer with BJJ black belt and 255lbs and KO power

Pavlovich is a sambo wrestling background and 255lbs jacked with 84 inch reach and 6"3


You think Fedor wins all these fights? With no chance of losing?

 

[Greyscale]

His skill set is 20 years gone, and the only thing is left is the taste of his balls in your mouth.

 

[PunchesOnLunches]

This is one of those things were the modern fan who hasn't looked back won't understand and fans that are UFC homers exclusively to the point of elitism won't admit online at least.

Fedor Emelianenko is the all-time HW GOAT and probably p4p too.

My opinion of course but I don't have to think twice about it.

 

[HHJ]

Fedor invented MMA in 1742

 

[The Last King]

His skill set is 20 years gone, and the only thing is left is the taste of his balls in your mouth.

Cry more sensitive one.

Vadim Nemkov is the best LHW in the world using that 20 year old skillset.

 

[Midget Boxer]

Mikro is 225lbs... With poor grappling.



Gane is 247lbs much taller and jacked with a far longer reach and leg length than Cro Cop

Ngannou is also much taller, just as fast and 270lbs and very hard to takedown. Ngannou had KOd every top fighter he faced basically. Somehow the "brawler" keeps KTFO of more technical strikers like Rozenstruck, JDS, Arlovski, Overeem, etc etc

Blaydes is 260lbs a top level wrestler, good BJJ and hits hard

Ubereem was 270lbs jacked, on horse meat and a K1 Grand Prix champ with elite takedown defense so strong that not even Werdum, Big Foot or Lesnar could take him down. Ubereem tossed 290lb Rodgers to the ground and manhandled Lesnar in the clinch

Prime Werdum 245lbs, 6"4 and already beat Fedor but became an even better striker with improved BJJ submitting Big Nog.

Aspinall is 6"5 Boxer with BJJ black belt and 255lbs and KO power

Pavlovich is a sambo wrestling background and 255lbs jacked with 84 inch reach and 6"3


You think Fedor wins all these fights? With no chance of losing?

Only Ngannou from that list would beat Fedor

Everyone else is too one dimensional

Also 240 pound HWs are usually the best

 

[Hellowhosthat]

I will say I think any prime argument about Fedor is silly when it comes to the Werdum fight. That was a tactical error, nothing to do with his physical prime, doesn't really matter what stage of your career you're at when you put yourself in a Werdum triangle.

I can certainly see the past prime argument for the Bigfoot and Hendo defeats, but not the Werdum one.

 

[The Last King]

Mikro is 225lbs... With poor grappling.

Gane is 247lbs much taller and jacked with a far longer reach and leg length than Cro Cop

Ngannou is also much taller, just as fast and 270lbs and very hard to takedown. Ngannou had KOd every top fighter he faced basically. Somehow the "brawler" keeps KTFO of more technical strikers like Rozenstruck, JDS, Arlovski, Overeem, etc etc

Blaydes is 260lbs a top level wrestler, good BJJ and hits hard

Ubereem was 270lbs jacked, on horse meat and a K1 Grand Prix champ with elite takedown defense so strong that not even Werdum, Big Foot or Lesnar could take him down. Ubereem tossed 290lb Rodgers to the ground and manhandled Lesnar in the clinch

Prime Werdum 245lbs, 6"4 and already beat Fedor but became an even better striker with improved BJJ submitting Big Nog.

Aspinall is 6"5 Boxer with BJJ black belt and 255lbs and KO power

Pavlovich is a sambo wrestling background and 255lbs jacked with 84 inch reach and 6"3


You think Fedor wins all these fights? With no chance of losing?

Mirko was better than Gane. Gane fought in some shitty French Muay Thai circuit after 2010. Mirko fought in the best K1 era ever beating the shit out of the likes of Remy Bonjasky, Mark Hunt, Peter Aerts, Jerome LeBanner, Rey Sefo, Feitosa and Mike Bernardo. All who were much, much higher level than regional muay Thai Gane lol. Gane never beat anyone on such a high level. He wouldn't even qualify for a K-1 oceana tournament. There is zero evidence Gane is a better grappler. Mirko would and the guys Mirko beat in K1 would all beat the shit out of Gane lol

Gane is very lucky he's fought nothing but sloppy brawlers, washed up strikers with no grappling. If he fought guys Fedor, Big Nog, Barnett, Randy, Hunt, Sergei and Cro Cop I doubt he'd win more than 2 fights. Guys who were better grapplers /strikers than him or guys who did both better. I like Gane and cheer for him but he isn't anything super modern or something special that was too advanced for the elites from the last two generations.

Ngannou is good but his best win so far is 40 year old Stipe. Other than that washed up Cain, washed up JDS, washed up Arlovksi and washed up Reem had all lost in the UFC multiple times when Ngannou beat them. Not one of them were peaking. We will see what happens with him but he would obviously be a force in any era.

Blaydes is 250lbs, not 270lbs lol and he's a decent wrestler with decent hands but he's a poor tactician. He nearly got knocked out by 50 year old Mark Hunt and had to panic wrestle the old man to survive. Got knocked dead by Derrick Lewis who's an average fighter with little skills. He's not on Fedors level in terms of skill or tactics. I don't think he'd beat prime AA, prime Cop, prime Nog, prime Barnett or prime Sergei or prime Aleks.

Prime Werdum was a great fighter but he's from Fedors generation using him as an example of a high level HW only makes Fedors era look better. But youre not smart enough to understand this.

Aspinall is good but still unproven. So far his best win is an ancient Arlovski and Volkov who has always had very weak grappling. Good wins but nothing that cements Aspinall as an elite fighter. I think he easily could be but we have to see it.

Pavlovich is good too and I hope he does well in the UFC but he's like Aspinal. His best win is washed up Derrick Lewis. Other than that he got smashed by Econoreem who already had 5 losses in the UFC when he smashed Pavlovich. I still think he's good but he hasn't done enough yet to assume he would be in the top 5 today, 10 years ago or 18 years ago when the talent level was higher.

These are all good fighters but outside of Ngannou not one of them have done enough to be considered higher level than the top 5 HWs from the last two generations.

 

[ServantofGOD]

Mirko was better than Gane. Gane fought in some shitty French Muay Thai circuit after 2010. Mirko fought in the best K1 era ever beating the shit out of the likes of Remy Bonjasky, Mark Hunt, Peter Aerts, Jerome LeBanner, Rey Sefo, Feitosa and Mike Bernardo. All who were much, much higher level than regional muay Thai Gane lol. Gane never beat on such a high level. He wouldn't even qualify for a K-1 oceana tournament. There is zero evidence Gane is a better grappler. Mirko would and the guys Mirko beat in K1 would all beat the shit out of Gane lol

Gane is very lucky he's fought nothing but sloppy brawlers, washed up strikers with no grappling. If he fought guys Fedor, Big Nog, Barnett, Randy, Hunt, Sergei and Cro Cop I doubt he'd win more than 2 fights. Guys who were better grapplers /strikers than him or guys who did both better. I like Gane and cheer for him but he isn't anything super modern or something special that was too advanced for the elites from the last two generations.

Ngannou is good but his best win so far is 40 year old Stipe. Other than that washed up Cain, washed up JDS, washed up Arlovksi and washed up Reem had all lost in the UFC multiple times when Ngannou beat them. Not one of them were peaking. We will see what happens with him but he would obviously be a force in any era.

Blaydes is 250lbs, not 270lbs lol and he's a decent wrestler with decent hands but he's a poor tactician. He nearly got knocked out by 50 year old Mark Hunt and had to panic wrestle the old man to survive. Got knocked dead by Derrick Lewis who's an average fighter with little skills. He's not on Fedors level in terms of skill or tactics. I don't think he'd beat prime AA, prime Cop, prime Nog, prime Barnett or prime Sergei or prime Aleks.

Prime Werdum was a great fighter but he's from Fedors generation using him as an example of a high level HW only makes Fedors era look better. But youre not smart enough to understand this.

Aspinall is good but still unproven. So far his best win is an ancient Arlovski and Volkov who has always had very weak grappling. Good wins but nothing that cements Aspinall as an elite fighter. I think he easily could be but we have to see it.

Pavlovich is good too and I hope he does well in the UFC but he's like Aspinal. His best win is washed up Derrick Lewis. Other than that he got smashed by Econoreem who already had 5 losses in the UFC when he smashed Pavlovich. I still think he's good but he hasn't done enough yet to assume he would be in the top 5 today, 10 years ago or 18 years ago when the talent level was higher.

These are all good fighters but outside of Ngannou not one of them have done enough to be considered higher level than the top 5 HWs from the last two generations.

 

[The Last King]

I will say I think any prime argument about Fedor is silly when it comes to the Werdum fight. That was a tactical error, nothing to do with his physical prime, doesn't really matter what stage of your career you're at when you put yourself in a Werdum triangle.

I can certainly see the past prime argument for the Bigfoot and Hendo defeats, but not the Werdum one.

Did you not see Fedors fights leading up to the Werdum fight? He was already looking bad against Hunt and Lindland in 2007. He won those fights but it was clear he was declining. Then he destroyed Tim Sylvia and struggled with Arlovski but won and then he KOd Rogers after somewhat struggling with him but anyone who watched Fedor from the beginning knew he was slowing down based on these performances.

He was still good but now he was pulling wins out of his ass and its no coincidence he lost in his next fight against Werdum and then lost to Bigfoot and Hendo. Fighters who are in their prime don't lose 3 in a row. Fedors coaches were saying he was slowing around the Arlovski fight. What other indicators are needed to recognize he was past his prime? This doesn't mean he wasn't good anymore but he clearly wasn't peaking anymore from 2007 onwards.

 

[HHJ]

Did you not see Fedors fights leading up to the Werdum fight? He was already looking bad against Hunt and Lindland in 2007. He won those fights but it was clear he was declining. Then he destroyed Tim Sylvia and struggled with Arlovski but won and then he KOd Rogers after somewhat struggling with him but anyone who watched Fedor from the beginning knew he was slowing down based on these performances.

He was still good but now he was pulling wins out of his ass and its no coincidence he lost in his next fight against Werdum and then lost to Bigfoot and Hendo. Fighters who are in their prime don't lose 3 in a row. Fedors coaches were saying he was slowing around the Arlovski fight. What other indicators are needed to recognize he was past his prime? This doesn't mean he wasn't good anymore but he clearly wasn't peaking anymore from 2007 onwards.

I wouldnt say Fedor was looking bad. He just had some struggle. Fedor was so good,a punch gets landed on him and people freak the fuck out,lol. They cant ALL BE EASY.

When the Hunt fight happened,I can say now he was probably getting less slick with his submissions there,but AT THE TIME,I wasnt sure what to think. Hunt constantly overachieved. When I saw the Arlovski fight,I noticed a loss in speed. He threw a punch at Arlovski from really far away,and It seemed really odd to me. We never saw someone consistently beat Fedor to the punch like Arlovski was doing but remember,Arlovski had very fast hands and was working w Freddie Roach. I do think Fedor was slower though by this point. Arlovski had found his range on him. Even though it was really like for only 10 seconds,before he was banished mid-air to the shadow realm.

I also remember that his submissions game wasnt as slick as it used to be when he fought Rogers. That was similar to the Hunt fight. These were humongous guys,sure,but he usually could reduce them to street pizza,but he was havin a harder time of it here.

 

[ServantofGOD]

Mirko was better than Gane. Gane fought in some shitty French Muay Thai circuit after 2010. Mirko fought in the best K1 era ever beating the shit out of the likes of Remy Bonjasky, Mark Hunt, Peter Aerts, Jerome LeBanner, Rey Sefo, Feitosa and Mike Bernardo. All who were much, much higher level than regional muay Thai Gane lol. Gane never beat on such a high level. He wouldn't even qualify for a K-1 oceana tournament. There is zero evidence Gane is a better grappler. Mirko would and the guys Mirko beat in K1 would all beat the shit out of Gane lol

Gane is very lucky he's fought nothing but sloppy brawlers, washed up strikers with no grappling. If he fought guys Fedor, Big Nog, Barnett, Randy, Hunt, Sergei and Cro Cop I doubt he'd win more than 2 fights. Guys who were better grapplers /strikers than him or guys who did both better. I like Gane and cheer for him but he isn't anything super modern or something special that was too advanced for the elites from the last two generations.

Ngannou is good but his best win so far is 40 year old Stipe. Other than that washed up Cain, washed up JDS, washed up Arlovksi and washed up Reem had all lost in the UFC multiple times when Ngannou beat them. Not one of them were peaking. We will see what happens with him but he would obviously be a force in any era.

Blaydes is 250lbs, not 270lbs lol and he's a decent wrestler with decent hands but he's a poor tactician. He nearly got knocked out by 50 year old Mark Hunt and had to panic wrestle the old man to survive. Got knocked dead by Derrick Lewis who's an average fighter with little skills. He's not on Fedors level in terms of skill or tactics. I don't think he'd beat prime AA, prime Cop, prime Nog, prime Barnett or prime Sergei or prime Aleks.

Prime Werdum was a great fighter but he's from Fedors generation using him as an example of a high level HW only makes Fedors era look better. But youre not smart enough to understand this.

Aspinall is good but still unproven. So far his best win is an ancient Arlovski and Volkov who has always had very weak grappling. Good wins but nothing that cements Aspinall as an elite fighter. I think he easily could be but we have to see it.

Pavlovich is good too and I hope he does well in the UFC but he's like Aspinal. His best win is washed up Derrick Lewis. Other than that he got smashed by Econoreem who already had 5 losses in the UFC when he smashed Pavlovich. I still think he's good but he hasn't done enough yet to assume he would be in the top 5 today, 10 years ago or 18 years ago when the talent level was higher.

These are all good fighters but outside of Ngannou not one of them have done enough to be considered higher level than the top 5 HWs from the last two generations.

Fedor got KOd by a MW who is 200lbs.... Blaydes is 260lbs and hits hard

My point with Werdum is Werdum was always a superior HW in his prime than Fedor