Fedor strengths and weaknesses and his skillset in the UFC today (Long Thread)

[The Last King]

It’s a forum. You are making your opinions public. I am making my opinion public too. My opinion is that you seem triggered by posts about an MMA fighter and should maybe take a little time away from this thread.

My opinion is that you should mind your own business, clown.

 

[TJ177]

Fedor had two concurrent combat sports careers (Sambo and MMA); his injuries and mileage caught up with him and he passed his prime by 2008; basing prime solely on age is flawed.

No issue with that. And some guys improve over time and some guys regress. Motivation fades. Guys take different level of damages.

What I do have an issue with is anyone using Jan and Glover as champs at their age as an indictment of "today's fighters" ... in a Fedor string!

 

[The Last King]

No issue with that. And some guys improve over time and some guys regress. Motivation fades. Guys take different level of damages.

What I do have an issue with is anyone using Jan and Glover as champs at their age as an indictment of "today's fighters" ... in a Fedor string!

Jan and Glover are just two valid examples. There are many more.

 

[TJ177]

He passed his prime and was super injured in the UFC? He left the UFC and took a fight in 4 months. He fights 7 fights within one year's time. He also picks up a kickboxing grand prix championship. What happened to his injuries?

The stock answer here usually is that Fedor/Nog/Crocop were the best 3 heavyweights of all time and will remain that way until the end of recorded human history.

The prime for all 3 overlapped almost uniformly (and only in Pride) and the grievous injuries they suffered fighting each other caused the untimely end of their "prime" at which point they became easy prey (in their mid 30s) to guys like Gabriel Gonzaga and Bigfoot Silva.

 

[The Last King]

The stock answer here usually is that Fedor/Nog/Crocop were the best 3 heavyweights of all time and will remain that way until the end of recorded human history.

The prime for all 3 overlapped almost uniformly (and only in Pride) and the grievous injuries they suffered fighting each other caused the untimely end of their "prime" at which point they became easy prey (in their mid 30s) to guys like Gabriel Gonzaga and Bigfoot Silva.

Nog started fighting in 99
Mirko in 97
Fedor in 2000

UFC shills claim they were in their prime in 2011.

Makes sense.

 

[acannxr]

He passed his prime and was super injured in the UFC? He left the UFC and took a fight in 4 months. He fights 7 fights within one year's time. He also picks up a kickboxing grand prix championship. What happened to his injuries?

I don't mind answering all of those questions, but you're going to have to address my counterpoint to your drug testing and "life long juicer" argument first.

 

[Can’t Handle My Riddum]

My opinion is that you should mind your own business, clown.

https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/coping-mechanisms

PM me if you need to talk.

 

[TJ177]

Nog started fighting in 99
Mirko in 97
Fedor in 2000

UFC shills claim they were in their prime in 2011.

Makes sense.

So Nog was world champ 2 years after fighting and Fedor 3 years after starting and that's reflective of how deep the division was back then?

Or perhaps people are willing to consider that Fedor and Nog were really well-rounded fighters for their time period and were able to capitalize on a fairly primitive weight division.

 

[Reffson]

He wasn't very big, but yes his speed and skills were the great equalizers.

 

[acannxr]

The stock answer here usually is that Fedor/Nog/Crocop were the best 3 heavyweights of all time and will remain that way until the end of recorded human history.

While it's not the only factor I consider, I lean more towards top ten ranked wins when picking all-time greats. Here are the top five Pride/UFC champions with the most top ten ranked wins:

(12) Fedor
(9) Nogueira
(8) JDS
(8) Miocic
(7) Velasquez/Ngannou/Couture

I would include Fedor and Nogueira in the all-time list for Top 5 heavyweights, but not Cro Cop.

For context, here's Cro Cop's top ten ranked wins:

#10 Heath Herring
#3 Josh Barnett
#6 Josh Barnett
#8 Wanderlei Silva
#2 Josh Barnett

Mirko only has 5 top ten wins; the highest I could rank him in an all-time list would be #10 along with Cormier and Barnett, who also have 5 top ten ranked wins at Heavyweight.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...st-top-10-ranked-wins-at-heavyweight.4148848/

 

[acannxr]

Or perhaps people are willing to consider that Fedor and Nog were really well-rounded fighters for their time period and were able to capitalize on a fairly primitive weight division.

Meanwhile Sherdoggers once tried claiming Miocic the HW GOAT when he built his resume off fighters who were mostly from Fedor's era, so if Fedor's era was "primitive" that says more about the modern era than anything else.

 

[TJ177]

While it's not the only factor I consider, I lean more towards top ten ranked wins when picking all-time greats. Here are the top five Pride/UFC champions with the most top ten ranked wins:

(12) Fedor
(9) Nogueira
(8) JDS
(8) Miocic
(7) Velasquez/Ngannou/Couture

I would include Fedor and Nogueira in the all-time list for Top 5 heavyweights, but not Cro Cop.

For context, here's Cro Cop's top ten ranked wins:

#10 Heath Herring
#3 Josh Barnett
#6 Josh Barnett
#8 Wanderlei Silva
#2 Josh Barnett

Mirko only has 5 top ten wins; the highest I could rank him in an all-time list would be #10 along with Cormier and Barnett, who also have 5 top ten ranked wins at Heavyweight.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...st-top-10-ranked-wins-at-heavyweight.4148848/

But see if you're just talking about their resume and all-time standing then you'll get no argument from me.

You can only fight who was around at that time and you should be judged on that merit.

But extrapolating that to say "Oh of course Ngannou would get taken down and submitted by Fedor!" is super silly.

 

[Paul E Gensinger]

You hear a lot of talk about "evolution" which has merit to a degree, but the reality is that it's significance is over exaggerated. Fedor had a more well rounded and comprehensive skillset in 2005 than any HW in the UFC has today. He was arguably more skilled than any fighter in the UFC today.

Fedor was the fastest HW that theres ever been. Big Nog said he was the fastest fighter hes ever fought. Chael Sonnen said he was blown away by how fast, old, Bellator Fedor still was. Yuji Shimada the legendary Pride FC ref whos refereed hundreds of fights said Fedor was not only the fastest HW hes ever seen but the fastest fighter hes ever seen. He said he noticed Fedor's speed the most during his transitions from striking to grappling. He said watching Fedor transition from throwing strikes to ragdolling his opponents was like watching an, "Animal. "Wow." -Yuji Shimada

On top of being the fastest HW ever, Fedor was the most well rounded HW ever and had the most dynamic and comprehensive skillset this sport has ever seen at HW and maybe even across all weight classes, depending on who you ask.

A grappler but would spar competitively with world class, hard hitting, pro boxers like Lebedev and land a lightning fast right cross on them like a pro boxer would. Nobody in the HW division today has a cross this good and this fast and this was old Strikeforce Fedor. Not only was he technical, but he understood distance and timing and he could also hit the brawl button at any time if he needed to and brawl with ANYONE. This is rare because most fighters usually can only do one or the other.



Fedor had world class Sambo and Judo skills and was on the Russian national Judo team. He had no problem with ragdolling a 250lb man. He took down prime Mirko almost easily with finesse while Olympic level, powerful wrestlers like Coleman and Randleman couldnt. Fedor had a lifetime of knowledge in throws and takedowns and even in his later years was pulling off shit like this:



You won't see any HWs in the UFC today pulling off anything like this. It requires years and years of training, experience and expertise in grappling and again, this was old, Strikeforce Fedor.

Fedor had the best and most fierce ground and pound this sport has ever seen. I could post gifs of him bouncing prime Nogs head off the mat like a basketball but what he did to Herring is still slept on in terms of speed and ferocity. Just listen to the sound of these GnP shots.



Besides the striking, grappling and brutal GnP, Fedor had slick submissions and could armlock his opponents from his back with the hip-speed of a break dancer like he did to Coleman. Coleman has spent lots of time on the mat with high level grapplers. Not even Big Nog subbed him with such swiftness. Even a Renzo Gracie black belt in BJJ like Stephan Bonnar never came close to submitting 50 year old Coleman. Even Shogun who is a Cristiano Marcelo black belt in BJJ and who has spent multiple camps training with Demian Maia never came close to submitting old Coleman. It shows how swift Fedors armlocks were and how ahead of his time he was by pulling off such slick subs back in 2004.



Besides the skills, Fedor had absurd reflexes. He checked Mirkos fastest and hardest low kick with no feel out process in the opening moments of their fight like it was nothing. You don't see those kind of checking reflexes in MMA, you see it in professional kickboxing and professional Muay Thai.

View attachment 955522

It's wild to think that a grappling based fighter like Fedor had enough skill, ferocity and durability in the stand up department to trade with prime Cop for extended periods of time and even get the better of him and actually walk him down and make him run away. This was truly unprecedented even by today's standards. Cro Cop was a lot higher level than someone like Gane and would completely embarrass the likes of Derrick Lewis and Tuivasa. Guys who are considered the top strikers in the UFC HW division.

View attachment 955523

You can't forget Fedors toughness and durability that came with all that skill and athleticism. He got thrown through the air and slammed on his neck by Randleman and recovered moments later and submitted him. Most people would die if this happened to them. Truly remarkable toughness and durability.

View attachment 955525

All in all when you combine the skill, the speed, the toughness, the endurance, the intensity, the durability and his well roundedness there is no doubt that there has never been anyone close to him and there probably never will be. Easily the greatest and most well rounded HW fighter ever and one of the best fighters to ever live. More skilled than any UFC HW today even with all the so called "evolution"


When it comes to weaknesses, Fedor could be reckless at times which made his fights exciting. He didnt play it safe and often took risks and this reckless approach has cost him.

His grappling off his back wasn't as good as his other skills. He could still pull off amazing armlocks and explosive sweeps from bottom and he had great scrambling ability, but his top game was much better than his bottom game. For example against Arona he resorted to hold on to Aronas head to stall while Arona was on top of him in mount and half guard position. Fedor was strong enough to pull this off and get away with it but generally, this was low skilled technique.

Another weakness I saw in him was his tendency to get a little bit lazy when it came to giving up underhooks which resulted in him giving up his back and him being put into dangerous situations. This was by far his biggest weakness and it resulted in him being KOd by Hendo and him getting slammed on his neck by Randleman. Below is an example of this tendency in a grappling session with Gegard Mousasi.



Sometimes he got away with it and other times he didnt, especially as he got older. Overall Fedor is still the fastest, most skilled, most well rounded and mentally toughest HW fighter I've ever seen with the best reflexes.

The fact that he had such an advanced and comprehensive skillset 17 years ago speaks volumes of how good he was and how ahead of his time he was. The #1 P4P fighter in the world for 7 consecutive years. There are few fighters in the UFC who are more skilled if any. Maybe prime GSP. Maybe prime Anderson. Maybe prime Aldo but I think Fedor was more skilled than all of them with all considered.

Vadim Nemkov is the best LHW in the world. He's beaten the likes of Phil Davis 2x, Ryan Bader and Corey Anderson who would all be top 5 in the UFC today, using Fedors 2005 skillset. That says a lot about how complete this skillset is and how these talks of "evolution" are extremely exaggerated as a marketing gimmick to make casuals feel like the product they're consuming is superior to anything else they may have missed in the past and thus it's created a very toxic, what have you don't for me lately fanbase.

TLDR.
Got finished by Bigfoot Silva.

 

[TJ177]

Meanwhile Sherdoggers once tried claiming Miocic the HW GOAT when he built his resume off fighters who were mostly from Fedor's era, so if Fedor's era was "primitive" that says more about the modern era than anything else.

To me there should be no argument against Fedor as the heavyweight GOAT. He's #1.

Claiming that a 2005 Fedor beats a 2017ish Stipe is a different argument.

 

[SpamuraiSensei]

The Pride era felt special. I miss it, and I have no doubt Fedor would among the top five today. Besides potentially getting clipped, I can see him zuluing Ngannou and Gane. I'm thinking it must be age along with a myriad of injuries that stopped him from mixing up striking and grappling a whole lot more. We'll never know, but he remains the GOAT at heavyweight.

 

[Deleted member 504083]

TLDR.
Got finished by Bigfoot Silva.

And Ngannou lost to Zoumana Cisse and Derrick Lewis.

There'll come a time when the top HWs today will lose to guys they'd never lose to in their prime as well.

 

[NoSmilez]

I don't mind answering all of those questions, but you're going to have to address my counterpoint to your drug testing and "life long juicer" argument first.

Your drug testing assumption is very vague. I don't quite understand what your point is. Are you trying to claim Mirko is clean? First of all, your statement of 7-10 days is plenty of time is honestly not accurate at all. It is definitely not true for most injectables. Different steroids stay in your body for different amounts of time. You need to plan and not every compound is available. What are you suggesting someone use to beat a drug test in 7-10 days? What dose is suitable?

You are also working on the assumption the foreign athletes are privy to what type of drug tests and what they test for. Each state's athletic commission is responsible for that test and they have their respective labs that they work with. Non associated labs have difference tolerance when it comes to detection limit.

I honestly need a source or a reference for your blood volume stabilizing claim with regards to performance.

 

[The Last King]

But extrapolating that to say "Oh of course Ngannou would get taken down and submitted by Fedor!" is super silly.

Who said this?

I'm certain Fedor would have beaten the Ngannou who lost to Stipe and Lewis.

The current Ngannou has improved a lot so that would be more difficult for Fedor.

Outside of Ngannou every other HW is significantly lower level than the elite HWs of the last two generations. This is undeniable.

Lewis, Volkov and Tuivasa wouldn't be top 5 in the Cain-JDS-Werdum- Stipe era.

They woudlnt be top 5 in the Fedor-Nog- Cop era.

Thus suggests there has been a huge decline in talent.

 

[MartinGibson86]

Right...how could a guy like Fedor ever handle Franci's technical striking? I'm not saying Francis couldn't catch him but to say he would get killed by Tai, Lewis, or Francis? LOL.

UFC skill level is best ever!!

He fought a big slow HW who threw bombs before and knocked his head clean off! - Yes also got KO'd by Hendo. I'm just saying you can't say Fedor would kill the top UFC guys or vice versa.

Dub worthy imo.


Rogers being compared to Francis is based on absolutely nothing besides race.

I've said it before in these Fedor circle jerks, but here goes another;

Other than finding AA's notoriously weak chin in the first exchange, what other wuality wins does Rogers have?

 

[MartinGibson86]

Who said this?

I'm certain Fedor would have beaten the Ngannou who lost to Stipe and Lewis.

The current Ngannou has improved a lot so that would be more difficult for Fedor.

Outside of Ngannou every other HW is significantly lower level than the elite HWs of the last two generations. This is undeniable.

Lewis, Volkov and Tuivasa wouldn't be top 5 in the Cain-JDS-Werdum- Stipe era.

They woudlnt be top 5 in the Fedor-Nog- Cop era.

Thus suggests there has been a huge decline in talent.

Stipe is still actve lol


Blaydes, Stipe, Francis, and Gane beat any top 4 ever.