Media Fedor named most padded record by MMA on Point!

[TrainHard]

It was today's "A level athlete" thread of that year. There were dozens of threads about it per day for months.

2,3 and 5

 

[2004 account]

The fact of the matter is niethhh one was still campion , and winning in lesser orgs. Doesnt mean as much.

Something and ignorant ufc only mma casual would say.


I sware you guys don't know shit and you're exposing yourselves haaaard now lol

 

[SG123]

It is absolutely a reflection of the one fight, genius. How many fights get overturned? Does the commission go back and change their entire schedule retroactively? This is absolutely the most ridiculous stance I've ever heard on Sherdog regarding the subject.

This also conflicts with your previous claim of "innocent until proven guilty". They passed all other tests. They would have to prove there was fuckery, use Lance Armstrong for reference, in order for these guys to be guilty in any other fight in which they passed their tests. The tests, by your logic, prove their innocence in prior fights. Fedor is "proven" to be clean because he passed tests, right? GSP too?

Grow up, kiddo. Fuck

You’re a confused and angry person.

 

[90 50]

LMAO, the UFC was the lesser org when they were champions, your argument is destroying itself, you say winning in a lesser org which the UFC was when Pride was around doesn't mean much. The UFC wasn't really the dominant HW division when they left, they didn't have the best HW division till after Strikeforce folded years later. That's why they were both ranked higher right before they fought Fedor than when either of them was the UFC champion. The top 4-5 HWs were pretty much always in Pride till it no longer existed.

Because the tire Changing Brett Rogers wwwas one of the best in the World right

 

[SammyPops]

MMA on Point is clickbait

 

[Mike]

Because the tire Changing Brett Rogers wwwas one of the best in the World right

He was top ten ranked at the time. How about the fact that most of the hw top ten was in strikeforce, not the ufc.

 

[Takamine86]

The best Heavies were in Pride back in the day and Fedor has beaten many UFC champs at that time as well soo...

 

[ocfightfan]

Must be true if “MMA on point” said so...






“On Point” MMA knowledge brought to you by:

lol perfect.

 

[Fioretti]

You’re a confused and angry person.

You've tapped like three times now, and are just trying to get the last word.

In seems strange in a thread about padded records to rubbish Hunt because he was 7 fights into his career, a career in which he did not have any lower level record building fights, he went straight into quality matches.

Part of the problem as well is that you are judging by UFC standards, titles defences, fighting opponents at their ranking peak, etc. I mean when Fedor fought Mark Hunt was he really any worse than when he fought Barnett a few months before?

To me a title is only as good as who you are fighting for it and ranking are not the be all and end all of fighter quality.

Fedor barely defended his title, and his opponents weren't top quality. That's kind of the point here, bro. Hunt, coming off a loss, with a record of 5-2 is not a top contender for the PRIDE HW championship. Barnett started a pretty large losing streak for Hunt, who I believe ended up 5-7 before he got another win.

Damage from fights tend to be acute -- it leads to sudden loss of ability (sometimes career ending). Wear and tear over a decade (which seems to be the norm for contact sports) is based on daily damage accumulating, and in MMA that's from training. If you'll excuse my somewhat off-topic rant, there's no other sport in the world that would accept the amount of damage from training that is the norm in MMA. If in a hockey practice one of the players started heavily checking other players (say Sid Crosby or McDavid) they'd be off the team and probably out of the league in an instant. Same for any NFL linebacker who heavily sacked one of the quarterbacks in practice. But in MMA fighters will regularly spar full out, and try to KO each other -- and often do so for several sparring sessions each day for several months. Its insane.

In terms of reflexes, read up on the sports physiology research, most people's reflexes have slowed considerably by age 30 (well, actually by about 25), and everyone tested has slowed by age 30. Some fighters (like Anderson) were able to adjust by reading their opponent's better, or by clowning in front of them to draw reactions at a time they were looking for them. That Anderson was able to do that, but not Fedor (or Muhammad Ali or Roy Jones Jr) says very good things about Anderson -- he was able to adjust for slowing reflexes. But his reflexes were slower too. Fedor, like Roy Jones Jr, was very reflex dependent -- both had a lot of holes in their striking that they got away with while their reflexes were so fast, but were unable to adjust when they aged. Ali was like that too, but was able to adjust to slowing reflexes. Despite what many of his fans say, Fedor always had bad striking technique, but was so much faster that he got away with it until he got to the normal drop off point for athletes (ie the start of his 30's).

In terms of coincide with Fedor, 95% of Olympic gold medal winners drop off (to the extent of not being able to win a medal after the age of 30), 90% of NBA MVP's can't repeat after the age of 30 (not even Lebron has been able to do that), so I'd say it'd be much more a coincidence if Fedor had been able to keep his previous run going after 10 years and with slowing reflexes -- in fact, it'd be a sign that he was on some sort PED that no one else was. The fighters still doing well in their mid to late 30's all started later, as far as I know none of them have been at the top for ten years. Anderson lasted about ten years at the top. So did GSP. Jones will be coming up on ten years soon, and is already showing diminished abilities (though of course many on Sherdog will say he's just being exposed, that he never fought anyone good before).

Just out of curiosity, you seem to think that everyone ages at the same rate, ie all fighters at the same age should be in the same place in the aging of their abilities. How do you square that with the obvious differences in aging humans display (you need only talk to a doctor, or even visit an old folks home to see how dramatically different people age -- some 90 year olds have aged better than some 60 year olds)? Even assuming every athlete takes the same care of their bodies (eats the same way, gets the same amount of rest, avoids alcohol and recreational drugs, uses the same supplements etc), from what we know of human genetics there should still be a wide variation in their rates of aging -- it'd be startling if it turned out they all aged the same. And in fact, its very doubtful they all take the same care of their bodies (though interestingly enough, one theory about why contact sport athletes fall off after ten years is that they get tired of all the sacrifices they have to make to keep themselves in top level condition).

I always enjoy your posts, my dude, I like how you carry yourself, but to pretend that athletes regularly fall off at 30 is just wrong. Some may, yes, but the majority do not. In fact, most of the best athletes in the world are 31-35, in all sports. Here are some articles for reference:

The 30 best current NFL players in their 30s | Yardbarker

Power Ranking the Best Over-35 Athletes in Major Sports | Bleacher Report | Latest News, Videos and Highlights

Sports: Top 16 athletes over 35 - from Tom Brady to Serena Williams (usatoday.com)

Why we’re going to see more and more older athletes - The Verge <--- Very interesting read, and I recommend you check the whole thing out when you get time. It literally says the opposite of what you've been saying, and touches on other top athletes realizing the best in the world were 30+

Fedor is supposed to be one of the best fighters ever. He is obviously not below or near an average person/fighter. He just wasn't some invincible Russian juggernaut with a stellar record as some of the delusional fans make him out to be. He's one of the greatest of all time skill-wise, but he has a very padded record. He has (by far) the worst resume out of any of the top 4 GOAT candidates. Not even close.

 

[spannered]

What I want to know is, for these twits on MMA On Point and those agreeing with them, is WHICH big name did Fedor not fight? Because he ticked off every big HW name up until 2011.

He did some can crunching in his 27 fight win streak, but holy shit, The Eagle is at 29 fights, and he only started fighting top 10 fighters from around 23 on. What was Fedor supposed to do? Just keep fighting Big Nog over and over again in Pride? During his prime there were two contenders in the UFC, and they both got stopped inside of a round by Fedor when they eventually met.

It's like his haters would give him more credence if he only fought 10 times in that 15 year streak, beating the same high level comp he did. The cans are easy wins for sure, but it's more dangerous being active and taking these fights then not at all.

 

[MartinGibson86]

He was top ten ranked at the time. How about the fact that most of the hw top ten was in strikeforce, not the ufc.

Thats debatable and he got his ass kicked there anyway.

DC was a prospect. Werdum had already washed out of UFC, losing to AA and KO'd by JDS. He was a 6.5 to 1 dog against Fedor. Bigfoot was an anuknown. That's why he was fighting Fedor in the first round of the tourney. Hendo was never a top 10 HW.

Reem and Barnett eere their heavy hitters. UFC had Lesnar, Carwin, Cain, JDS, and Mir.


As far Rogers, other than finding AA's notoriously weak chin, i challenge you to find a quality win on his resume.

 

[gevoudane]

Isnt mma on point just 2 sherdoggers?

 

[krelianx]

Goodridge, Ogawa, Valavicius, Choi, Zulu, Lindland, Fujita, TK, Nagata, Coleman 2

Yeah.

 

[DivineMind]

Must be true if “MMA on point” said so...






“On Point” MMA knowledge brought to you by:

Wait... 24 pages? I thought this post was /thread.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

I always enjoy your posts, my dude, I like how you carry yourself, but to pretend that athletes regularly fall off at 30 is just wrong. Some may, yes, but the majority do not. In fact, most of the best athletes in the world are 31-35, in all sports. Here are some articles for reference:

The 30 best current NFL players in their 30s | Yardbarker

Power Ranking the Best Over-35 Athletes in Major Sports | Bleacher Report | Latest News, Videos and Highlights

Sports: Top 16 athletes over 35 - from Tom Brady to Serena Williams (usatoday.com)

Why we’re going to see more and more older athletes - The Verge <--- Very interesting read, and I recommend you check the whole thing out when you get time. It literally says the opposite of what you've been saying, and touches on other top athletes realizing the best in the world were 30+

Fedor is supposed to be one of the best fighters ever. He is obviously not below or near an average person/fighter. He just wasn't some invincible Russian juggernaut with a stellar record as some of the delusional fans make him out to be. He's one of the greatest of all time skill-wise, but he has a very padded record. He has (by far) the worst resume out of any of the top 4 GOAT candidates. Not even close.

I enjoy your posts too -- we tend to disagree, but always with interesting points brought up. I haven't had time to look at your links yet, but in terms of the age of the majority of the best athletes in the world, I'd argue that the average age of Olympic gold medalists, or of world record holders in measured sports (very few older than 30 in track and field or swimming or speed skating for instance), or of MVP's in major sports leagues (some in the 30's, but the majority given to players in their 20's) gives the best picture, and those are all in the 20's.

Even going by average ages of various Olympic sports, or of major sports like the NBA, NLH, premier soccer etc gives a number in the mid-20's (there are exceptions, such as equestrian riding which gives numbers in the 40's if I remember correctly).

In the past that data showed that the majority of the best athletes in the world were in their 20's (and that most of the best of the best, the world record holders and MVP's and gold medal winners are also in their 20's). But I'll look at your posts, as they might well contain different data -- if in fact there are statistics showing that most world record holders or Olympic gold medal winners or even Olympians (or NBAS or NHL or MLB etc MVP's etc) are now in their 30's then I'll revise my opinion. I'll admit I haven't looked at the numbers in a few years, so there may have been a dramatic shift in the five years older athletes in all of those, though I doubt it (just based on unscientific anecdotal evidence from the sports I follow like the NBA and NHL (all the MVP's lately have been in their 20's) and from a quick glance at the ages of world record holders in track (almost all in their 20's).

 

[Fioretti]

I enjoy your posts too -- we tend to disagree, but always with interesting points brought up. I haven't had time to look at your links yet, but in terms of the age of the majority of the best athletes in the world, I'd argue that the average age of Olympic gold medalists, or of world record holders in measured sports (very few older than 30 in track and field or swimming or speed skating for instance), or of MVP's in major sports leagues (some in the 30's, but the majority given to players in their 20's) gives the best picture, and those are all in the 20's.

Even going by average ages of various Olympic sports, or of major sports like the NBA, NLH, premier soccer etc gives a number in the mid-20's (there are exceptions, such as equestrian riding which gives numbers in the 40's if I remember correctly).

In the past that data showed that the majority of the best athletes in the world were in their 20's (and that most of the best of the best, the world record holders and MVP's and gold medal winners are also in their 20's). But I'll look at your posts, as they might well contain different data -- if in fact there are statistics showing that most world record holders or Olympic gold medal winners or even Olympians (or NBAS or NHL or MLB etc MVP's etc) are now in their 30's then I'll revise my opinion. I'll admit I haven't looked at the numbers in a few years, so there may have been a dramatic shift in the five years older athletes in all of those, though I doubt it (just based on unscientific anecdotal evidence from the sports I follow like the NBA and NHL (all the MVP's lately have been in their 20's) and from a quick glance at the ages of world record holders in track (almost all in their 20's).

One of those articles mentions something about certain sports (track) and certain positions (running back) typically having shorter and younger primes. Mainly due to the wear and tear the sprinting bursts have on the body, so you're definitely not wrong there. It's certainly not all one way or the other. However, if you look at the MMA championship history, most champs are/were 30+. Not all, of course, and most of the champs in their 20s are late 20s. Physical primes typically start at 27-28.

Jon Jones becoming champ at 23 is the exception, and he's not normal.

 

[Bmurray]

Khabib didnt get fed any cans while he was in his prime

When you only fight every other year no wonder

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

One of those articles mentions something about certain sports (track) and certain positions (running back) typically having shorter and younger primes. Mainly due to the wear and tear the sprinting bursts have on the body, so you're definitely not wrong there. It's certainly not all one way or the other. However, if you look at the MMA championship history, most champs are/were 30+. Not all, of course, and most of the champs in their 20s are late 20s. Physical primes typically start at 27-28.

Jon Jones becoming champ at 23 is the exception, and he's not normal.

I looked at your three links. The first two are anecdotal, listing the exceptions to the young rule (as the articles themselves say) -- and most of the exceptions in the NFL one are just over 30 (ie 32 and under). The second one was interesting, didn't realize Serena Williams was that old, and Gordie Howe was a hero of mine since I was a kid. However, the very fact that the over over 30's are exceptions tends to back what I was saying -- most top level athletes are under 30.

The third link, though it didn't give any statistics, was very interesting. It makes a good case that older athletes are going to become more common as medical technology increases (especially genetic advances, which backs what is already known about how much genetics controls againg and why we'd expect different athletes to age differently). Thanks for posting that link, very helpful. However, it doesn't apply to Fedor, since his 20's were over a decade ago and before these advances.

Physical prime is generally at 27-28 (not as the start though, 27-28 is the actual peak of the bell-curve wrt age of top athletes -- it falls off in both direction from there). As you say, MMA does tend to have older champs, but those older champs also tend to start older as well -- the ten years as a highly ranked competitor pattern holds very well (ie after ten years they start losing regularly). It works for Penn, Fedor, Anderson, GSP, Aldo, Hughes (actually he didn't quite make 10 years), and Jones is showing signs of following the ten year rule too given his latest performances. The ones it doesn't work for tend to err on the shorter-career side -- ie guys like JDS, Cain, Brock, Machida who didn't even make ten years as a top level fighter, and guys like Stipe who are older but have a ways to go before they'll have been top level competitors for ten years.

 

[Fioretti]

I looked at your three links. The first two are anecdotal, listing the exceptions to the young rule (as the articles themselves say) -- and most of the exceptions in the NFL one are just over 30 (ie 32 and under). The second one was interesting, didn't realize Serena Williams was that old, and Gordie Howe was a hero of mine since I was a kid. However, the very fact that the over over 30's are exceptions tends to back what I was saying -- most top level athletes are under 30.

The third link, though it didn't give any statistics, was very interesting. It makes a good case that older athletes are going to become more common as medical technology increases (especially genetic advances, which backs what is already known about how much genetics controls againg and why we'd expect different athletes to age differently). Thanks for posting that link, very helpful. However, it doesn't apply to Fedor, since his 20's were over a decade ago and before these advances.

Physical prime is generally at 27-28 (not as the start though, 27-28 is the actual peak of the bell-curve wrt age of top athletes -- it falls off in both direction from there). As you say, MMA does tend to have older champs, but those older champs also tend to start older as well -- the ten years as a highly ranked competitor pattern holds very well (ie after ten years they start losing regularly). It works for Penn, Fedor, Anderson, GSP, Aldo, Hughes (actually he didn't quite make 10 years), and Jones is showing signs of following the ten year rule too given his latest performances. The ones it doesn't work for tend to err on the shorter-career side -- ie guys like JDS, Cain, Brock, Machida who didn't even make ten years as a top level fighter, and guys like Stipe who are older but have a ways to go before they'll have been top level competitors for ten years.

Physical prime is typically starting at 27-28, bro. Of course, you'll get conflicting information from different sources, but early 30's is not when most people start to decline. Mid to late 30's is. The top endurance athletes are actually mostly in their 40's, and I would absolutely consider MMA an endurance sport. Not strictly, of course, and muscle strength + reflexes are definitely needed. Let's take a look at current UFC champions, though, just for shits and giggles:

• Heavyweight Champion: Stipe Miocic (19-3) - 38 years old
• Light-heavyweight Champion: Jan Blachowicz (27-8-0) - 37 years old - Jon Jones - 33 years old
• Middleweight Champion: Israel Adesanya (20-0) - 31 years old
• Welterweight Champion: Kamaru Usman (16-1) - 33 years old
• Lightweight Champion: Khabib Nurmagomedov (28-0) - 32 years old
• Featherweight Champion: Alexander Volkanovski (21-1) - 32 years old
• Bantamweight Champion: Petr Yan (15-1-0) - 27 years old Henry Cejudo - 32 years old
• Flyweight Champion: Deiveson Figueiredo (20-1-0) - 32 years old
• Women’s Featherweight/Bantamweight Champion: Amanda Nunes (19-4) - 32 years old
• Women’s Flyweight Champion Valentina Shevchenko (20-3) - 32 years old
• Women’s Strawweight Champion: Zhang Weili (21-1) - 31 years old

I mean, that pretty much says it all, brother. There's literally ONE champion under 31 years of age, and he is essentially champion by default since Cejudo (early 30's) gave up his belts.

31-33 is PRIME fighting age. This is not coincidental.

 

[Fioretti]

@AnotherOldGuy

Bellator champs:

HW: Bader - 37 years old
LHW: Nemcov - 28 years old
MW: Mousasi - 35 years old
WW: Lima - 32 years old
LW/FW: Freire - 33 years old
BW: Archuletta - 33 years old
WFW: Cyborg - 35 years old
FLW: Macfarlane - 30 years old

Once again.....only one champ under 30, and he just took the title from the 37 year old. It wouldn't be this consistent to have 30+ year old champs when there are so many young killers out there nowadays. How could this possibly be if they're just deteriorating physically and their reflexes are gone? Just not true, my bro.