Fedor and M1 weren't wrong for wanting co-promotion with UFC

[VAfan]

they were completely, totally, 100% wrong. the ufc is the biggest league in the world, the biggest stage there is, asking for them to split the money with your rinky dink little org is basically tantamount to admitting you don't want to do it in the first place.

 

[HHJ]

they were completely, totally, 100% wrong. the ufc is the biggest league in the world, the biggest stage there is, asking for them to split the money with your rinky dink little org is basically tantamount to admitting you don't want to do it in the first place.

M1 Presents UFC 300 would have been so sick.

 

[Russie]

I still think Brock would have beaten Fedor more times than not. Fedor wasn't going to stop the double and his guard wasn't going to prevent his face from becoming hamburger meat. Of course, if Fedor landed a big punch first, Brock could have frozen up

Brock would have crumbled. Right or wrong it's something we should've got to see but they deprived us of it.

 

[vintagemmafan]

I agree that it made sense for M1 to want to copromote because it would have made him them lots of money. It did not make sense for the UFC to copromote because it would not have made them money compared to running events like they had. I said that about 5 pages ago. You’re acting like it made business sense for the UFC to comply with this request when it truly did not.

And yes, if you have a rare item you can charge whatever you want for it. But there is some level of responsibility attributed to the seller that you’re not seeing here. It is possible for the seller to ask for things they know they won’t get or that don’t make sense for the buyer to give up. It’s called pricing yourself out of negotiations. Anyone with a modicum of understanding about the UFCs business model knew they were not going to copromote with M1. So while it makes sense that M1 wanted to, it starts to make a lot less sense to make that aspect a sticking point of the negotiations.

I get the feeling that you’re just mad that you didn’t get to see Fedor beat guys like Lesnar and Couture. Sorry that didn’t happen bud.

Not mad about Fedor going to UFC although I'm pretty positive he would have done better than going to SF, if I'm mad about anything it's Fedor not retiring after Pride or at least trying to fight Couture in some sort of private one off fight thats it.

 

[560ti]

I've wrote this several times now and it's Dana pursued Fedor therefore it's on him if he couldn't get the deal done and he wasted his own time again

That's not how this works. If you ask for demands that you know will never get agreed to than that's not good faith negotiating.

It's especially weird to use that argument when he went on to sign for multiple organizations that failed all for less money.

M1 did not have Fedors best interest as their #1 priority that's NOT what you want from someone whose negotiating on your behalf.

And yes, if you have a rare item you can charge whatever you want for it. But there is some level of responsibility attributed to the seller that you’re not seeing here. It is possible for the seller to ask for things they know they won’t get or that don’t make sense for the buyer to give up. It’s called pricing yourself out of negotiations. Anyone with a modicum of understanding about the UFCs business model knew they were not going to copromote with M1. So while it makes sense that M1 wanted to, it starts to make a lot less sense to make that aspect a sticking point of the negotiations.

Exactly.

The UFC had a heavyweight champion who could sell 1 million PPVS just by himself and had already talked with Jerry Jones on using a brand new NFL stadium in hopes of selling it out. What they already had in place had them 80% of were they wanted to get to they just needed a little boost.

It would be like if there was some NBA player from that era who was worth 10 million a year demanding 20 million a year + wanted special sponsorship treatment and the NBA tells him to kick rocks and he then proceeds to play in some Euro league for like $4-5 million.

You wouldn't in retrospect be claiming now a days "uhhh the NBA should've met his demands, that was his price your responsibility to seal the deal".

They'd be like "yeah that agent screwed him over and wasn't looking out for his clients best interest, cost him lots of money"

 

[Prince Nephilim]

M-1 sank every org it co-promoted with

UFC was smart not to sign with M-1

 

[Kingz]

Fedor didn’t have much a choice. He was their fighter so I think people mostly kept mistaking them for management rather than a promoter shopping themselves around with their flagship fighter. Dana also kept referring to them as his managers rather than the fight promotion he was signed to. Giving people false expectations that the deal could be done without M-1.

But in hindsight, they should’ve taken the cash windfall and whatever logo/sponsorship presence UFC was offering. That alone could’ve offered them a connection and exposure to expand their promotion.

Looking back, their co-promotion presence in the Strikeforce/M-1 cards and the Aflliction ones weren’t so apparent that it’s no surprise that fans wouldn’t think they were any more than a sponsor or whatever.

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

Gonzaga KILLS Fedor

 

[Doctor Grudge]

UFC already had established a tv deal(Spike) and had a PPV model mainly because UFC had been around longer was one of the original og orgs, SF was a younger organization and while they did acquire a tv deal it didn't matter as UFC had more resources and could counter program their live events, leading up to that though SF was a real problem for the UFC as the numbers show they were eating into some of the profits and people were watching and talking about SF. It's not like UFC was always on top either at one time Pride was ahead of UFC for 10 years the only thing that's saved UFC is it's popularity and ppv model tv deal that's it their product was inferior to Pride, SF I watched them both at the time and know which one I preferred.

Pride was not actually ahead of the UFC at all. They were in totally different markets. People who post on MMA message boards have a hard time understanding that Pride and the UFC were not actual competitors.

Most people that watched the UFC did not watch Pride and vice versa. When Pride died, those fans didn't just go over to the UFC, they simply stopped watching MMA. Same thing would have happened in UFC had died.

Pride was a bigger org that was making more money for most of its tenure, that is not the same thing as saying it was "ahead" of it.

Strikeforce was nothing like the UFC or Pride.

 

[vintagemmafan]

Pride was not actually ahead of the UFC at all. They were in totally different markets. People who post on MMA message boards have a hard time understanding that Pride and the UFC were not actual competitors.

How were they in different markets when I live in North America in the 2000s and ordered every Pride PPV over UFC and they also had a TV deal in Japan and were beginning to come to the U.S, not only that many American fighters and others choose and sought out Pride over UFC nothing you just said adds up.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

As someone living in Asia, my mind is blown that men, who are now middle aged, cannot comprehend that a domestic Japanese promotion and a domestic American promotion are not in competition.

This is like saying the UFC and Rizin are competitors, or New Japan and WWE. They are not competing over the same market for the same reason White Castle and In-And-Out are not competitors in the US fast food market.

 

[560ti]

Fedor didn’t have much a choice. He was their fighter so I think people mostly kept mistaking them for management rather than a promoter shopping themselves around with their flagship fighter.

The first negotiation (2007) he wasn't signed with any organization and the 2nd negotiation (towards the end of 2009) his 2 year contract with M1 was expiring.

M1 should've had no sway or major pull in either scenario yet all we heard was how they weren't happy.

The reason why they get mixed up is because he was minority owner of M1 at the time and didn't even fight for the promotion, he was essentially signed by them but using them to negotiate fights in other promotions so yes it was technically his management even though that's not the most conventional method. It would be like someone signed to LFA with zero intention to ever fight for them they just use them to negotiate fights on their behalf all while having already having a financial incentive in said organization.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

How were they in different markets when I live in North America in the 2000s and ordered every Pride PPV over UFC and they also had a TV deal in Japan and were beginning to come to the U.S, not only that many American fighters and others choose and sought out Pride over UFC nothing you just said adds up.

What are you talking about? You can still buy Japanese MMA PPVs, that does not mean Rizin and the UFC are competitors.

Pride did not make money off of American PPVs, which is why many of their events were not on American PPV. Their PPV sales were like 20,000. They made money off of being on network tv in Japan. They were not even played at normal times live. They only had 1 or 2 events in America,

You are a very bubbled fan, that doesn't actually realize how orgs like Pride and the UFC function - I mean it's pretty apparent by how you think M1 and the UFC should co-promote, and that them not doing so is because Dana White is evil or something.


Pride did not have a TV deal in America, and their PPVs were a minor part of their income. Therefore, they were obviously not competitors with the UFC. Most MMA fans did not have to pick between the two.



Western fans have this obsession that Pride gave a shit about them because they were one of the few people watching their events on the internet. Pride was not concerned about the American market and were only trying to breach in toward the end of their run. This is easily verifiable....


Americans going to Pride to fight doesn't mean that Pride is a competitor with the UFC. Fighters are performers not consumers. If someone goes to New Japan instead of WWE or AEW, it doesn't mean that New Japan is competing in the American wrestling market. They went to Pride because Pride paid better, not because it was in the American market (which is irrelevant to fighter pay).


It's actually baffling that you were buying PPVs back then and did not notice that Pride is a Japanese product appealing to Japanese people and that their biggest star was Japanese.

 

[vintagemmafan]

That's not how this works. If you ask for demands that you know will never get agreed to than that's not good faith negotiating.

It's especially weird to use that argument when he went on to sign for multiple organizations that failed all for less money.

M1 did not have Fedors best interest as their #1 priority that's NOT what you want from someone whose negotiating on your behalf.


Exactly.

The UFC had a heavyweight champion who could sell 1 million PPVS just by himself and had already talked with Jerry Jones on using a brand new NFL stadium in hopes of selling it out. What they already had in place had them 80% of were they wanted to get to they just needed a little boost.

It would be like if there was some NBA player from that era who was worth 10 million a year demanding 20 million a year + wanted special sponsorship treatment and the NBA tells him to kick rocks and he then proceeds to play in some Euro league for like $4-5 million.

You wouldn't in retrospect be claiming now a days "uhhh the NBA should've met his demands, that was his price your responsibility to seal the deal".

They'd be like "yeah that agent screwed him over and wasn't looking out for his clients best interest, cost him lots of money"

Ah I think they thought they had a shot at getting copromotion and you are basically trying to say they went into the negotiations with the intent to sabotage them I don't buy that nor do you know what they're thinking process was going in, the problem with you guys is that you're simpletons and think well Fedor's an idiot he was offered a lot of cash isn't that enough would be good enough for me duh, Fedor's reasoning was that he wanted to help his team mates and most importantly during the talks he found out he didn't like Dana which is understandable I wouldn't do business with someone I didn't respect regardless of the money he would have had to sell his soul to Dana and he didn't want that don't blame him at all.

 

[vintagemmafan]

What are you talking about? You can still buy Japanese MMA PPVs, that does not mean Rizin and the UFC are competitors.

Pride did not make money off of American PPVs, which is why many of their events were not on American PPV. Their PPV sales were like 20,000. They made money off of being on network tv in Japan. They were not even played at normal times live. They only had 1 or 2 events in America,

You are a very bubbled fan, that doesn't actually realize how orgs like Pride and the UFC function - I mean it's pretty apparent by how you think M1 and the UFC should co-promote, and that them not doing so is because Dana White is evil or something.


Pride did not have a TV deal in America, and their PPVs were a minor part of their income. Therefore, they were obviously not competitors with the UFC. Most MMA fans did not have to pick between the two.



Western fans have this obsession that Pride gave a shit about them because they were one of the few people watching their events on the internet. Pride was not concerned about the American market and were only trying to breach in toward the end of their run. This is easily verifiable....


Americans going to Pride to fight doesn't mean that Pride is a competitor with the UFC. They are not the consumer. If someone goes to New Japan instead of WWE or AEW, it doesn't mean that New Japan is competing in the American wrestling market. They went to Pride because Pride paid better, not because it was in the American market (which is irrelevant to fighter pay).


It's actually baffling that you were buying PPVs back then and did not notice that Pride is a Japanese product appealing to Japanese people and that their biggest star was Japanese.

I was making the point not about how they out sold UFC in ppv's that I ordered their ppv's and they were more popular world wide which they were back then, they had tv deals in other countries that televised their events. They were absolutely a competitor to the UFC back in the 2000s it's retarded to claim they weren't they were 100 000% the top organization that everyone cares about America isn't the world, UFC were the ones struggling financially in the 2000s Pride was holding events that held like 100 000 people UFC has never done that they had the top roster are you trying to tell me back then that UFC was more successful financially and as an organization because that's all I'm talking about not when Pride went defunct, bottom line you're dead wrong that in the early 2000s Pride wasn't a competitor when in fact they were ahead of UFC absurd bullshit you're writing here.

 

[vintagemmafan]

What are you talking about? You can still buy Japanese MMA PPVs, that does not mean Rizin and the UFC are competitors.

Pride did not make money off of American PPVs, which is why many of their events were not on American PPV. Their PPV sales were like 20,000. They made money off of being on network tv in Japan. They were not even played at normal times live. They only had 1 or 2 events in America,

You are a very bubbled fan, that doesn't actually realize how orgs like Pride and the UFC function - I mean it's pretty apparent by how you think M1 and the UFC should co-promote, and that them not doing so is because Dana White is evil or something.


Pride did not have a TV deal in America, and their PPVs were a minor part of their income. Therefore, they were obviously not competitors with the UFC. Most MMA fans did not have to pick between the two.



Western fans have this obsession that Pride gave a shit about them because they were one of the few people watching their events on the internet. Pride was not concerned about the American market and were only trying to breach in toward the end of their run. This is easily verifiable....


Americans going to Pride to fight doesn't mean that Pride is a competitor with the UFC. They are not the consumer. If someone goes to New Japan instead of WWE or AEW, it doesn't mean that New Japan is competing in the American wrestling market. They went to Pride because Pride paid better, not because it was in the American market (which is irrelevant to fighter pay).


It's actually baffling that you were buying PPVs back then and did not notice that Pride is a Japanese product appealing to Japanese people and that their biggest star was Japanese.

It's baffling to you that I was buying Pride PPV's back then are you fucking touched in the head wow the reasoning is so retarded so I shouldn't have been following it because it's Japanese well unlike you I'm not a brand guy I cared about where the best of the best were competing and that wasn't the UFC lol, also the biggest star was Japanese who Sakuraba who by the early 2000s was fading after getting destroyed by Wand 3 times I don't know I never followed mma/nhb for stars I'd watch movies if I wanted to see stars that's some gey shit no offense very childish and more of an americanized hollywood crap the whole we need stars is a modern phenomenon taking place now and is why a lot of people don't watch UFC that much and I can't blame them.

So you think back in that time period people around the world were thinking "Oh I better not order the Pride open weight grand prix because Pride is a Japanese product geared towards the Japanese public" the only thing baffling is how utterly stupid of a thought that would be and you're a horrific idiot for writing such a thing and most importantly you're wrong about it being solely geared towards the Japanese public if that were the case they wouldn't have had Bas and Quadros the English commentary and why did they have them oh right because they had a significant world wide audience that they knew tuned in regularly and ordered their events.

I think I'm done and said everything I needed to say and after that comment I'm not gonna even bother that's like special type of dumb level shit right there why would you order Pride events it's not geared towards non Japanese how fucking braindead, whatever perceived non intelligent point/thing I supposedly wrote has been eclipsed by that dumb shit have a nice day.

 

[volcom5]

 

[ocfightfan]

So you sign one guy and he beats your champion and then leaves. And he and his friends get half the revenue, and you help build a competitor. Genius.

Co-promotion is what you do when you are second best or going down the tubes. Dana knows from experience. He tried co-promoting with Pride FC and they strung him along. So he put Chuck in their tournament and made a huge bet but then lost. Fortunately he had friends with deep pockets and they jumped on the reality TV trend. Also fortunately (for the UFC) Pride was just a money laundering front for the Yakuza and they came to the US too late.

Dana is a dick, and more and more I'm cynical about the UFC, but he's made more right moves than wrong moves to make the UFC the top fight program in the world and ensure it's long term success. It may be bland, sterile, and watered down but the revenue keeps growing and it's hard to see what might stop it. But co-promotion is not in the cards.

 

[Söze Aldo]

Fedor didn’t have much a choice. He was their fighter so I think people mostly kept mistaking them for management rather than a promoter shopping themselves around with their flagship fighter. Dana also kept referring to them as his managers rather than the fight promotion he was signed to. Giving people false expectations that the deal could be done without M-1.

But in hindsight, they should’ve taken the cash windfall and whatever logo/sponsorship presence UFC was offering. That alone could’ve offered them a connection and exposure to expand their promotion.

Looking back, their co-promotion presence in the Strikeforce/M-1 cards and the Aflliction ones weren’t so apparent that it’s no surprise that fans wouldn’t think they were any more than a sponsor or whatever.

What exactly did Fedor get from his relationship with M1? So, they were a fight promotion who got confused for his management, because he was fighting in other fight promotions?

They seemed like needless middlemen. The UFC probably would have cut Fedor a huge check personally to fight Brock, if not for the co-promotion thing.