FBI raids office of Michael Cohen, personal attorney to Donald Trump

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Oh fuck. I can't even. What the hell?
 
HomerThompson said:
I saw some reporting that Cohen got a home equity loan to pay for the settlement. If so, it's very likely he falsified loan documents. They're also looking at money laundering, etc. Cohen is fucked, and Trump is rustled beyond belief right now.
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Why in the hell is a lawyer like him so cash poor he needs a loan to pay 130k? That makes no sense.
 
TribalDrumz said:
Muellers coming yo
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I'm fucking dying
 
MikeMcMann said:
Indeed we expect a prosecutor to charge criminals and they are a failure if they do not. But a prosecutor is also supposed to 'not charge non-criminals' and they are a failure if they do charge them.

You do understand that everyone that might come under a prosecutors scrutiny is not necessarily a criminal or guilty and no one would hold the prosecutor responsible for not charging them right? In fact it would be seen as a positive.
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If the nation were composed of people like you, then you would be correct. But to perhaps 35% of the country, Trump undoubtedly committed heinous crimes. Those people are unable to accurately name the specific crimes that were committed, but they are nevertheless utterly convinced. In the eyes of those people, if Mueller fails to indict Trump or his close associates for those "crimes", then Mueller is a failure. There are also plenty of people in the middle to whom the prospect of millions of taxpayer dollars spent without a major indictment appears unsatisfactory. The Manafort indictment will probably satisfy the latter crowd in this specific case, but in general the problem remains.


MikeMcMann said:
At least this issue seems to be far more investigation worthy than passports and blow jobs.
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This comment is very ironic when one considers that the Starr investigation began with legitimate questions about the Clintons' real estate dealings and slowly and relentlessly spread into completely unrelated matters. Starr felt unsatisfied by his failure to get Clinton on his core issue, so he started barking down other lanes. You're making my point for me.
 
MikeMcMann said:
You are not making sense here.

Mueller is investigating Russia allegations. IF in that investigation he sees something not pertinent to his mandate but suspects a crime non-the-less he is not to turn a blind eye and ignore the body. He is to point it out to the proper authorities and they can investigate that and decide if they want to pursue it.
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There are legitimate questions about why Mueller had information on Cohen. Mueller's job is to investigate ties between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. As far as I can tell, Cohen is not working for the Russian government and was not a member of the Trump campaign. This could be an example of "mission creep" on Mueller's part.
 
andnowweknow said:
Why in the hell is a lawyer like him so cash poor he needs a loan to pay 130k? That makes no sense.
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I thought the accusation was that Cohen paid $130,000 of his own money to the porn actress, and that this payment constituted an "in kind campaign contribution" to the Trump campaign.
 
This whole thing is just so preposterous. Am I correct in understanding that if Trump had shelled out the money himself there wouldn't be a crime (maybe with the caveat that the payment was made before the campaign)? It's just a cluster fuck from so many angles. On top of that, it seems like they'd have to prove Cohen made the payment with the intent of helping Trump beat Hillary. If this actually ends up being Trump's undoing it would certainly be poetic: a presidential administration brought down by a completely unnecessary mess.

If they actually find what they need, it's been a game of fucking 1-dimensional tic-tact-toe the whole way.
 
PHATV said:
Didn't read whole thread, but if attorney-client privilege is not afforded to the POTUS, well, it sure as hell isn't going to be afforded any of us when it matters to us. Seems like a stretch and getting into shit that isn't "Russia"-related.

I don't know that this is the precedent we want to set for how we treat POTUS going forward.
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Crime/fraud is an exception to the attorney/client privilege. It is against the law to use your lawyer to facilitate or shield commission of a crime.
 
Swing said:
This whole thing is just so preposterous. Am I correct in understanding that if Trump had shelled out the money himself there wouldn't be a crime (maybe with the caveat that the payment was made before the campaign)? It's just a cluster fuck from so many angles. On top of that, it seems like they'd have to prove Cohen made the payment with the intent of helping Trump beat Hillary. If this actually ends up being Trump's undoing it would certainly be poetic: a presidential administration brought down by a completely unnecessary mess.

If they actually find what they need, it's been a game of fucking 1-dimensional tic-tact-toe the whole way.
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This sums up my view better than I could. However, it should be noted that we still don't know the exact nature of the warrant or the referral.
 
waiguoren said:
There are legitimate questions about why Mueller had information on Cohen. Mueller's job is to investigate ties between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. As far as I can tell, Cohen is not working for the Russian government and was not a member of the Trump campaign. This could be an example of "mission creep" on Mueller's part.
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If while investigating one crime he sees evidence of what he thinks is another crime, I am pretty sure he has an obligation to report to other authorities who can then decide whether it is worthy of pursuit or not.

But I think as an officer of the court he has to report what he thinks are violations of the law.
 
waiguoren said:
It's a problem of definition. Instead of arguing about the meaning of "rule of law", let's just agree that it's a terrible thing for a president to use his power to stop his own corruption from being investigated.
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OK.

waiguoren said:
I'm also not saying that it will necessarily benefit the country. I think it's wrong to ignore that possibility. However, if you think the Office of Special Counsel is a fine institution (I'd like to hear your view on the Starr investigation), then our disagreement runs deeper.
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Honestly, I don't know enough about the Starr investigation to comment. I think some of the points you've made about special counsels are fine, though I wonder about the practicality. Conditional upon a satisfactory and effective replacement for the institution, I'd be open to re-examining it.

waiguoren said:
Other than Manafort, very low-level indictments---and Manafort would have been investigated regardless of Mueller's involvement.

The most likely outcome of the Mueller investigation is multiple indictments of low-level campaign officials and millions of dollars of taxpayer money wasted. No one will be satisfied. Mueller will have missed the big fish, Trumpies will cry that Mueller was unfair, and Democrats will whine that Mueller didn't look in the right places.
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It's not wasting "taxpayer money" to investigate and find corruption in gov't. And I'd like to know where you're getting your faith in Trump. Also, your definition of "low-level" is quite odd.
 
PHATV said:
Didn't read whole thread, but if attorney-client privilege is not afforded to the POTUS, well, it sure as hell isn't going to be afforded any of us when it matters to us. Seems like a stretch and getting into shit that isn't "Russia"-related.

I don't know that this is the precedent we want to set for how we treat POTUS going forward.
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Attorney-client privilege is not afforded to anyone when the attorney in question is part of the criminal conspiracy.

PHATV said:
A billionaire philanderer has a personal attorney who is also a "fixer" and given broad authority to do his job. $130,000 to keep that woman quiet and protect the Don so Melania (or others) didn't find out about his one-night stand would be within said authority.
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But if he used campaign money of Trump's charity's money to do it, that's illegal.

HereticBD said:
Mueller was not investigating this avenue. Why do you think he handed it off to another branch? This whole thing is ridiculous. The very definition of a snoop. Get anything and everything, and fuck the original investigation. Won't be surprised if some traffic violations from Trump's past are brought to light.

I thought this was about Russia? No?

Fuck this shit. Mueller jumped the shark. I hope Trump fires him. Personally. No back channels. And I hope congress does nothing about it, when it happens. This is absolute insanity, and while I'm sure the Libby brigade loves this "process" right now, they will not like it in the future. Precedents are getting set, and this is getting way out of hand. Trump needs to bring an end to this madness.
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So serendipitous that this GIF came into my hands right in time to get so much mileage out of it.

waiguoren said:
There are legitimate questions about why Mueller had information on Cohen. Mueller's job is to investigate ties between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. As far as I can tell, Cohen is not working for the Russian government and was not a member of the Trump campaign. This could be an example of "mission creep" on Mueller's part.
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He is following the money. If campaign money was involved in any way with the Stormy payoff, it probably left a trail leading directly to Cohen's doorstep.

And once Mueller determined that it was not Russia related but still dirty, he handed it off to the proper authorities.

Seems to me Mueller is following the book scrupulously.
 
I don't know any better but I suspect if you use your lawyer like a personal assistant, the "errands" and miscellaneous non-law related stuff isn't protected conversation.

If I pay my lawyer to go buy a plan B pill because I may have knocked up a girl, is that protected conversation?
 
waiguoren said:
I thought the accusation was that Cohen paid $130,000 of his own money to the porn actress, and that this payment constituted an "in kind campaign contribution" to the Trump campaign.
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That's one theory. Another is that he paid her of his own pocket and Trump used campaign money or his charity's money to to reimburse him. Both big no-nos.

Because Trump is pathologically incapable of paying for anything with his own money when there is any way of using someone else's.
 
waiguoren said:
You're taking a black and white view of things. In reality, most leads aren't "tons of illegal shit". They are more like, "hm, that seems a little fishy but is not directly related to what we're supposed to be investigating."
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Don't fucking tell me I have taken a black and white view on anything man and then change what I said to fit that bullshit narrative. If they find any illegal shit they should prosecute it. No free passes just because they are in the government or make a ton of money. All I am asking is that they are treated in the same way everyone else it. That is not black and white-- it is just sane.
 
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