Examples of people who train for points and those who train for submissions

[georgejjr]

Actually you usually divide boxers into boxers, brawlers and sluggers (visit boxing forums like eastside boxing for instance). Ali was a boxer, Fraser was a brawler, Foreman was a slugger. Boxer beats slugger, slugger beats brawler, brawler beats boxer. Joe Fraser has an interesting discussion about it in one of his books - it explains a lot of otherwise strange results where A beat B, B beat C, C beat A.

In the case of BJJ submission vs points, it seems to me you have to be able to do both. If you can't takedown, sweep or pass (ie get points) you're not going to get in position for the sub. If you don't have at least decent subs then your opponent can work you because he knows no matter what you do he doesn't have to worry about being subbed. Think about working with a good wrestler just starting out in BJJ - because you know he's never going to sub you, you can try things you wouldn't dare try against someone with decent subs.

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

In the case of BJJ submission vs points, it seems to me you have to be able to do both. If you can't takedown, sweep or pass (ie get points) you're not going to get in position for the sub. If you don't have at least decent subs then your opponent can work you because he knows no matter what you do he doesn't have to worry about being subbed. Think about working with a good wrestler just starting out in BJJ - because you know he's never going to sub you, you can try things you wouldn't dare try against someone with decent subs.

You can submit from the guard.

 

[Zankou]

Probably most submissions are from guard.

That said, it depends on the person. For me, I find sweeps and wrestling more fun than submissions. I just think a slick sweep is the most beautiful thing in jiu jitsu. Other people love submissions, the finality of it.

The one thing I don't like though are people who get position and stall, without trying to get better position or to finish. That's ugly jiu jitsu to me. I like to see flow.

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

Interesting topic there.

I think there IS a difference in style, even in a comp. What got me thinking was Kron's statement about his training and his father's philosophy in his most recent interview:

GRACIEMAG.com: Was getting the submission in every one of your fights the result of this daily effort?

Kron: I think it's the result of the technique my father's been teaching me since I was a kid. There's a difference between the Jiu-Jitsu you see going around and the way it should be done. Jiu-Jitsu was always about the submission, the detail of seeking out the easiest route to the submission is what my dad taught me.
(http://www.graciemag.com/news/144/ARTICLE/10165/2008-04-10.html)

What does this mean?

I think, if you train as described by Kron here, you develop a style that focuses on the easiest way to get to your goal (submission) which makes you a more efficient fighter.

Some other schools (or maybe even many) put out competition fighters that excell at a unique gameplan, to have that one type of guard or that one sweep that no one is familiar with (exaggerating here of course) and using that in a comp scenario to get the points and win.

Now I am not saying that one is better than the other, but I strongly believe that different training will produce different fighters.

If you're goal is the submission and finding the best way there, you will get a Rickson, Roger or Kron who are all about basics.

If you are focused on developing a special, unique game, you get a player that is more likely to have a strategy that revolves around hitting that one sweep or guard pass and holding on for the win.

Discuss if you please.

Jiu-jitsu can be translated as the martial art of gentleness. Here, I see "gentleness" as meaning "with a gentle touch" rather than "gentle as a baby. SO it means the art of precision or efficiency. The principle of maximum effectiveness with minimum effort is the core of judo and jiu-jitsu. Jiu-jitsu is all about the easiest way to subdue an opponent. So Kron's philosophy is good.

It is also why you should go for points in a match at first. You get amass a sizable point lead, then he will stop using "jiu" and start using more power to force things. That opens him up to make it easier to be submitted. Fighting for points and fighting for submissions are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Sean-Roberts]

I think "Big Mac" the black belt judo guy is the master at making points

 

[wOg]

Jiu-jitsu can be translated as the martial art of gentleness. Here, I see "gentleness" as meaning "with a gentle touch" rather than "gentle as a baby. SO it means the art of precision or efficiency. The principle of maximum effectiveness with minimum effort is the core of judo and jiu-jitsu. Jiu-jitsu is all about the easiest way to subdue an opponent. So Kron's philosophy is good.

It is also why you should go for points in a match at first. You get amass a sizable point lead, then he will stop using "jiu" and start using more power to force things. That opens him up to make it easier to be submitted. Fighting for points and fighting for submissions are not mutually exclusive.

Didn't Mario Sperry make this point? I feel as if I remember something similar being attributed to him ...

I always go for dominance: points, position ... I figure that the other guy is more likely to make a mistake when he's on the defensive. I'm not the most aggressive top player in the world. But I try to always be working for something. I love the idea that so many top jiu jitsu guys have of the submission just "falling into your hands" because of the control you have over your opponent and the way you have limited his options to "bad" and "worse."

A lot of interesting comments in this thread. I'm still trying to reverse engineer both Rickson and Kron. Helio talks about Rickson's "impeccable timing" and Kron talks about the importance of "efficiency." I know that I've tried to focus on both issues when I'm training, forcing myself to be both be patient and "explosive" as well as making sure that I'm rarely wasting energy "just wrestling around."

 

[Zankou]

I think "Big Mac" the black belt judo guy is the master at making points

Big Mac is so boring to watch it makes my fillings ache.

That's the problem with "points" guys, the way BJJ points are set up rewards stalling.

 

[georgejjr]

You can submit from the guard.

True. I've mainly been doing MMA lately, so guard work has become an exercise in breaking your opponent's posture and looking for either an escape or a standup. Forgot that the discussion was on sub grappling. My bad :redface:

 

[ozyabbas]

I have found that most of my submissions have come from open guard.

I feel most proud of getting a nice technical sweep or guard pass than getting a submission.

 

[yovan]

Interesting topic.

I guess I just don't compete that much to alter my game, but for me, the submission is the beauty of the sport.

Actually the transition to the sub is the beautiful part - and that comes from superior position most of the time.

So yes, they aren't mutally exclusive in my book - but I always want to finish someone. I'll give up position and take chances to do so. (armbar from mount, triangle attempts, etc.)

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

True. I've mainly been doing MMA lately, so guard work has become an exercise in breaking your opponent's posture and looking for either an escape or a standup. Forgot that the discussion was on sub grappling. My bad :redface:

And you can also submit from the guard too in MMA.

 

[ozyabbas]

One thing that many bjj guys will admit is that its not nice to see someone like Jeff Monson just get a take down or side controll and just lock them down so tight that the person can't get out and the time runs out.

At the same time, if you were ahead on points and you are in a very good controlling position (north south for example), people wouldn't really blame you if you didn't want to take the risk of trying to submit the guy.

I think most bjj guys don't want to see bjj go into the Jeff Monson style of taking the person down and stalling the rest of the match. Its the big negative about having a point system.

I remember seeing a passage from Jigoro Kano saying he didn't like the way judo was evolving, that competitions have changed peoples stances etc

 

[Fwogz1]

Do people really train for points? Do they keep a mental notes on the amount of points and time and after 4 minutes of rolling they stop and say I won during training, Then explain how they were up on points haha. Its always important to train position before submission. But you should have submissions from every position as well. As far as tournaments go, I will go for the take down, pass guard, then work for mount or their back. By that time Ill have a comfortable lead of 9-0 and from there its would be safe to work for submissions. Subs in a tournament can be dangerous, if you apply a loose arm bar or triangle your probably gonna get your guard passed and be down on points. I would go for subs if I have a comfortable lead, last ditch effort(way down on points), or if I knew I could easy finish him. If you can control a person for 4 minutes, be up on points and submit them I think that shows you were the better man.In the end I will always want to win by sub, and that they way it should be matches ending in submission other wise it would just be wrestling.

 

[sha]

I think that everybody trains for positions/points first in order to get higher percentage submissions.

But along the way, some people become so good at control that they start winning with points alone, and it becomes their strategy.

Often when I get side control, I can feel that my partner will escape if I give him space, so instead of going for a better position or a submission I just lock up and try to control him, which never works because he enventually escapes anyway.
I think that's a mistake, and you shouldn't loose the focus of bjj, which is still the submission.

 

[georgejjr]

And you can also submit from the guard too in MMA.

But its much harder to do, and becoming less frequent in current MMA. Like a lot of clubs, we allow slapping on the ground when rolling to simulate GnP (real GnP is too harmful to do on a regular basis), and even that's enough to distract and interrupt most submission attempts when both fighters are comfortable on the ground. Generally getting the sweep (or just breaking posture and holding on until a standup is called) is a much higher percentage move, and so its the one folks tend to go for, both at the club level, and at the UFC level. Generally you're so busy trying to keep the guy on top's posture broken (so he can't rain down bombs) that it's hard to pull off a sub from guard unless you're a lot better than he is on the ground. Of course, if there's a big difference in ability it happens - our instructor does it to the newer folks all the time. But he says he doesn't even try it in his fights if he knows the guy is good on the ground ... in fact he rarely goes for sweeps in those circumstance, preferring to break posture and wait.

And the gloves just make it worse - after you've been rolling for five minutes and covered by sweat, it's pretty hard to hold onto anything wearing them ... sometimes I'm amazed there are any submissions at all in MMA (okay, that's just me, I'm having a hard time getting used to them :icon_cry2).

 

[georgejjr]

duplicate

 

[blanko]

after rolling with guys like cobrinha, telles, certain btt fighters, tozzi, bruno fazoratto(sp) and gustavo falciroli.... I don't think that they give up position for sumission, it's that their transition is so smooth and that their controll is so good that they controll you untill the last moment they submit you.. But it looks like they are just jumping for submission.. that's what i felt.

 

[ShanghaiBJJ]

I think that everybody trains for positions/points first in order to get higher percentage submissions.

But along the way, some people become so good at control that they start winning with points alone, and it becomes their strategy.

Often when I get side control, I can feel that my partner will escape if I give him space, so instead of going for a better position or a submission I just lock up and try to control him, which never works because he enventually escapes anyway.
I think that's a mistake, and you shouldn't loose the focus of bjj, which is still the submission.

I think sha said what I have been trying to say, just better.

I was not making an argument against position before submission, because that is at the core of BJJ.

But you can enter a fight with a mindset of I want to win on points because it is too risky to sub this guy

vs

If I wanna win , I need to sub him. Which doesn't automatically mean I jump into subs catch wrestling style. No offense to cw.

 

[ShanghaiBJJ]

Here is a post I made about another forum about rules and no time limit matches.

Think it fits the topic well:
-------------

We have a sub-only, no time limit tournament here in Germany.
It ocasionally results in boring 45 minutes fights where no one wants to take a risk.
Still think it is cool.

However the BEST format I competed in was a hybrid.

1) No time Limit
2) Win by Sub OR gaining 9 points
3) Point system is:

2 points for TD into mount or sidemount,
1 point for TD into halfguard or guard.
3 points for mount
4 points for backmount.
-1 point for stalling.

THAT'S IT!

So no point snatching by going back and forth with KOB or halfguard - guard.

I think those rules are great. It allows you to fight more fluidly and agressively. Because you know that the risk of
- missing sub attempt - guy passing for points - stalling out- loosing 2-0
is not there.

At the same time there are rarely 45 min matches and positional dominance is still rewarded.

And for the TD and stand back up types?? If someone can take me down CLEANLY 5 times and stand back up, I will gladly have him get the win...

.... so I can go and get my concussion treated

 

[ozyabbas]

Do people really train for points? Do they keep a mental notes on the amount of points and time and after 4 minutes of rolling they stop and say I won during training, Then explain how they were up on points haha. Its always important to train position before submission. But you should have submissions from every position as well. As far as tournaments go, I will go for the take down, pass guard, then work for mount or their back. By that time Ill have a comfortable lead of 9-0 and from there its would be safe to work for submissions. Subs in a tournament can be dangerous, if you apply a loose arm bar or triangle your probably gonna get your guard passed and be down on points. I would go for subs if I have a comfortable lead, last ditch effort(way down on points), or if I knew I could easy finish him. If you can control a person for 4 minutes, be up on points and submit them I think that shows you were the better man.In the end I will always want to win by sub, and that they way it should be matches ending in submission other wise it would just be wrestling.

Yes, some people do make mental notes, its just to know where you might of been in a competition. Some people may also see at as winning, but those people would of done the same if they had submitted their sparring partner.

The problem of not having a point system is that matches may last a ridiculous amount of time, especially if they are at the very high belt level. You hear of matches being won by just an advantage. If there is an indefinite time period, it will be very hard for many black belts to submit other black belts.

Shanghai bjj tournament rules sound interesting. Perhaps with those rules you won't get what happened to Genki Sudo in ADCC, I think it was Vitor Belfort (can't quite remember) who kept going from passing the guard and allowing himself to be put in half guard.