Evolution of MMA is more hype...

[TrueFightFan]

Oh don't worry, I'm not one of the guys who thinks Khabib would run through the bigger guys. Anyone who trains any legitimate martial art knows that size matters. Khabib would lose to less skilled bigger guys even just one weight class above his. This is also why I have no interest in Khabib vs GSP, that and because GSP is 40 years old.

Weight cuts aside, I think that if MMA fighters have truly evolved, there would be no need for weight classes. A smaller opponent could utilize his speed, agility and endurance to wear down and defeat a larger opponent. A larger opponent would have to work on his timing to land a KO shot against a smaller guy. As for ground fighting, the more skilled fighter would come out on top.

There is nothing to say that Demetrious Johnson couldn't beat Ngannou in an open rules fight. Johnson would have to fight the perfect fight to win but that is what a true evolution would consist of. The ability to overcome all kinds of disadvantages.

 

[Kertol]

Mma has devolved from 10 years ago

 

[TrueFightFan]

Mma has devolved from 10 years ago

Exactly...

 

[Allosaurus Fragillis]

How do you think that's possible if he won't even venture out to fight guys his own weight (190lbs)? There are no rounds or rules to save him.

Because Khabib is so much more skilled than everyone from UFC 1 it's not even funny. What would guys like Art Jimmerson And Gerard Gordeau do to stop his takedowns? The only person who could potentially give Khabib some problems is Royce Gracie because of his BJJ. And even then, Khabib could just finish Royce on the feet. Khabib via smesh.

 

[Allosaurus Fragillis]

Mma has devolved from 10 years ago

How so? Aside from maybe GSP, which UFC Welterweight from 2011 could beat Kamaru Usman for example?

 

[TrueFightFan]

Because Khabib is so much more skilled than everyone from UFC 1 it's not even funny. What would guys like Art Jimmerson And Gerard Gordeau do to stop his takedowns? The only person who could potentially give Khabib some problems is Royce Gracie because of his BJJ. And even then, Khabib could just finish Royce on the feet. Khabib via smesh.

Khabib cuts weight for a size and strength advantage. Once he can't do that, he would have to rely on his skill. He is very hittable and relies heavily on the current MMA ruleset to win fights. In a UFC 1 style tournament, he is now getting hit by bigger guys and does not have rules and rounds to protect him but his fans seem to have more faith in him than he does in himself....he literally kills himself to avoid guys his size or bigger. Why don't you send him a letter to boost his confidence?

 

[TrueFightFan]

How so? Aside from maybe GSP, which UFC Welterweight from 2011 could beat Kamaru Usman for example?

Hendrix, Sanchez, Penn, Hughes, McDonald...the list goes on. Look at his skillset, what skills does he posess that show "advancement" as a martial artist?

 

[Kertol]

How so? Aside from maybe GSP, which UFC Welterweight from 2011 could beat Kamaru Usman for example?

I think a few actually. WW was always a wrestling strong division and Usman’s striking isn’t any better than the guys from back then.

 

[TrueFightFan]

I think a few actually. WW was always a wrestling strong division and Usman’s striking isn’t any better than the guys from back then.

Very few, if any, recent UFC champs are more evolved than the old school champs.

 

[achoo42]

DJ vs. Dan Severn would look something like a scaled down version of this:

 

[achoo42]

Very few, if any, recent UFC champs are more evolved than the old school champs.

If you mean heavyweight, then I sort of agree. Heavyweight is pretty stagnant.

But if you mean across all divisions, then that's just flat out wrong.

 

[TrueFightFan]

DJ vs. Dan Severn would look something like a scaled down version of this:

If you mean heavyweight, then I sort of agree. Heavyweight is pretty stagnant.

But if you mean across all divisions, then that's just flat out wrong.

350lbs vs 230lbs is completely different from 240lbs to 150lbs. Not saying it is impossible but Johnson would have to fight the perfect fight to win.

As for the evolution of HWs vs other weight classes, you wouldn't have other weight classes under the original rules so the road to the title would have to go through the heavyweights, no matter how stagnant the HW fighters seem but I agree that it looks pretty bad at HW. If Ngannou fought Fedor, back in the day, it would look like Zulu vs Fedor or Brett Rogers vs Fedor and everyone hating on Fedor would claim that "Ngannou was just a hard hitting can with no skills" because, at the end of the day, that is what Ngannou is right now.

 

[Throwin Bombs]

The responses in this forum seem to miss out on comparing the actual fighters raw skill set, not a comparison of MMA training between UFC 1 and now.

You have to take the fighter themselves and compare them equivalent to the same training level. There was no MMA style of fighting in the early 90s. Fighters had a discipline and learned something from another art but there was no MMA as an individual fighting system like now.

Boxing fans do a much better job comparing different eras of fighters.

 

[TrueFightFan]

The responses in this forum seem to miss out on comparing the actual fighters raw skill set, not a comparison of MMA training between UFC 1 and now.

You have to take the fighter themselves and compare them equivalent to the same training level. There was no MMA style of fighting in the early 90s. Fighters had a discipline and learned something from another art but there was no MMA as an individual fighting system like now.

Boxing fans do a much better job comparing different eras of fighters.

Good point but much of what I am referring to is applying the original UFC "no holds barred" ruleset to today's fighters. The "evolution" of fighters, as a whole, wouldn't carry them through that style of tournament. It would all fall back to HW. There's a reason that Khabib, GSP, Usman, Adesanya, jones and all other middle of the weight class fighters punish themselves to cut weight and that's to avoid Miocic, Ngannou, Lewis and every other HW, skilled or not. For all of Ngannou's and Lewis' KO's and wins, no one is going to declare them to be great Martial Artists and that's my point. A true evolution of MMA would allow for Khabib or jones to challenge the HW's and win. The evolution of the sport, however, does not allow for this on real level. Take, for example, Ngannou against GSP, how could GSP win this fight? If you plot out his course to victory, it would almost have to be under a no rules style of fight but gloves, certain strikes not being allowed, time limits and rounds would definitely aid Ngannou.

 

[achoo42]

350lbs vs 230lbs is completely different from 240lbs to 150lbs. Not saying it is impossible but Johnson would have to fight the perfect fight to win.

Is it really? I get that the strength difference is bigger at the lower weight class but then the speed difference is also much bigger. Severn was more skilled than Hong but DJ is also more skilled than Fedor.

No one had an inkling of this kind of skill level at the time. They would underestimate such a small opponent and then get subbed seemingly out of nowhere. Even in a favorable position.

As for the evolution of HWs vs other weight classes, you wouldn't have other weight classes under the original rules so the road to the title would have to go through the heavyweights, no matter how stagnant the HW fighters seem but I agree that it looks pretty bad at HW. If Ngannou fought Fedor, back in the day, it would look like Zulu vs Fedor or Brett Rogers vs Fedor and everyone hating on Fedor would claim that "Ngannou was just a hard hitting can with no skills" because, at the end of the day, that is what Ngannou is right now.

Nah. Fedor's been rocked by power punchers before. He nearly got KO'd by Kazuyuki Fujita who was a stocky submission wrestler but not a striker.

I think Fedor could beat Ngannou but you're seriously comparing Ngannou to a non-athlete like Zulu? Ngannou would run right through every heavyweight of the sport except for a select few like Stipe or Fedor, and he still has a decent chance of beating these two.

I guess this helps your argument that openweight hasn't progressed much. Add weightclasses and its a whole different story.

 

[kflo]

Weight cuts aside, I think that if MMA fighters have truly evolved, there would be no need for weight classes. A smaller opponent could utilize his speed, agility and endurance to wear down and defeat a larger opponent. A larger opponent would have to work on his timing to land a KO shot against a smaller guy. As for ground fighting, the more skilled fighter would come out on top.

There is nothing to say that Demetrious Johnson couldn't beat Ngannou in an open rules fight. Johnson would have to fight the perfect fight to win but that is what a true evolution would consist of. The ability to overcome all kinds of disadvantages.

Size will always matter. You can’t evolve a sport to mitigate size. That’s not a rational objective. Smaller fighters can beat less skilled bigger fighters, but size is a differentiating characteristic in fighting between trained fighters.

Wishing away weight classes is pointless. And obviously fighting in mma has evolved in totality. You have many more skilled athletes training with better coaches in better disciplines with better training partners with higher $$’s at stake and in play.

 

[kflo]

350lbs vs 230lbs is completely different from 240lbs to 150lbs. Not saying it is impossible but Johnson would have to fight the perfect fight to win.

As for the evolution of HWs vs other weight classes, you wouldn't have other weight classes under the original rules so the road to the title would have to go through the heavyweights, no matter how stagnant the HW fighters seem but I agree that it looks pretty bad at HW. If Ngannou fought Fedor, back in the day, it would look like Zulu vs Fedor or Brett Rogers vs Fedor and everyone hating on Fedor would claim that "Ngannou was just a hard hitting can with no skills" because, at the end of the day, that is what Ngannou is right now.

Ngannou is much better than rogers and zulu who both were pretty bad. Not sure why you’d lump them together. It’s not helpful to your point.

 

[kflo]

The responses in this forum seem to miss out on comparing the actual fighters raw skill set, not a comparison of MMA training between UFC 1 and now.

You have to take the fighter themselves and compare them equivalent to the same training level. There was no MMA style of fighting in the early 90s. Fighters had a discipline and learned something from another art but there was no MMA as an individual fighting system like now.

Boxing fans do a much better job comparing different eras of fighters.

What does this mean?

Mma at the time of ufc 1 was limited to a very small subset of mostly crazy people.

 

[TrueFightFan]

Is it really? I get that the strength difference is bigger at the lower weight class but then the speed difference is also much bigger. Severn was more skilled than Hong but DJ is also more skilled than Fedor.

No one had an inkling of this kind of skill level at the time. They would underestimate such a small opponent and then get subbed seemingly out of nowhere. Even in a favorable position.




Nah. Fedor's been rocked by power punchers before. He nearly got KO'd by Kazuyuki Fujita who was a stocky submission wrestler but not a striker.

I think Fedor could beat Ngannou but you're seriously comparing Ngannou to a non-athlete like Zulu? Ngannou would run right through every heavyweight of the sport except for a select few like Stipe or Fedor, and he still has a decent chance of beating these two.

I guess this helps your argument that openweight hasn't progressed much. Add weightclasses and its a whole different story.

Throwing Johnson in a time machine and sending him to UFC 1 could turn out well for him but putting him in an open weight tournament with UFC 1 rules today, probably not so much.

As for Zulu/Rogers vs Ngannou, to me, they were the Ngannous of their day. If you saw Zulu in the prefight stare down against Fedor, you would have thought that there is no way in Hell that Fedor wins. Advance training and techniques make for better athletes but fighting is fighting and with little to no rules, it's a tough go.

You are right, weight classes do seem to make all of the difference in the world... imagine Ngannou vs Demetrious Johnson in a UFC 1 rules fight.

 

[TrueFightFan]

Size will always matter. You can’t evolve a sport to mitigate size. That’s not a rational objective. Smaller fighters can beat less skilled bigger fighters, but size is a differentiating characteristic in fighting between trained fighters.

Wishing away weight classes is pointless. And obviously fighting in mma has evolved in totality. You have many more skilled athletes training with better coaches in better disciplines with better training partners with higher $$’s at stake and in play.

Kflow, this might be one of the first posts that I "like" of yours or somewhat agree with...

This post was in regards to the evolution of MMA vs the evolution of the Sport. All of the training and technique in the world won't save you from seeing the light if you get popped by Ngannou. However, have fighters evolved enough to be competitive in open weight tournaments? It almost seems that by placing all of the rules, constraints and weight classes on "the sport", we are actually stymying that evolution. Demetrious Johnson doesn't even have to think about or train on how to beat Ngannou or Miocic. How much would/could he improve as a fighter if he knew that he had to face him in 6 to 8 weeks in a no time limit fight with very few rules?