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Ethics and bjj

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by RubberRyan, Mar 20, 2008.

  1. RubberRyan Blue Belt

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    There are certain situations where i wonder what other people that train would do if they were in a real life fight situation and whether or not they would break someones limbs with joint locks.

    ex.
    In a small bar/club/party scuffle definitely not, I would always go for chokes

    In a mugging type situation then yes i would probably maim someone
     
  2. Wrestleben Brown Belt

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    Good to know. :icon_neut
     
  3. RubberRyan Blue Belt

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    well im curious as to what situations other people would be willing to break peoples bones
     
  4. Commissar Gold Belt

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    A choke or a long-bone attack (breaking a large bone) are considered lethal force. So, if you go for a choke in a streetfight, unless your life was in direct danger, you're liable.
     
  5. ViceGrip Blue Belt

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    Yeah...

    I think I may have missed the "ethical" portion of your argument for using a choke vs. a bone breaking submission in any given situation.

    But I digress.

    It's likely not best to ponder such deeply philosophical questions on an internet forum anyways. It may lead you to actually test your theories out, and result in your being stomped into the ground by your victims buddies, while you apply your rubber guard game.
     
  6. andrewbc Purple Belt

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    if someone were to attack me or someone i love no holds are off limits. it is unethical and unnecessary to use them other wise
     
  7. Prokofievian Silver Belt

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    Isnt it just great how if someone wants to fuck with you, and you judo throw them onto their heads, it's your fault?
     
  8. codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    i would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
     
  9. Shemhazai Black Belt

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    Hyperextending someone's elbow with an armbar or even tearing someone's ACL with a heelhook is hardly 'maiming' someone. These injuries will still heal with time. Maiming someone would be blinding them with an eye gouge, biting chunks out of their face or giving them brain/spinal damage that would permanently disable them. I'd say any damage that isn't permanent is pretty humane in a situation where someone is attacking you (or a third party) without consent. I won't comment on any other kind of fighting, since that's retarded.

    Either way, though, even lethal force shouldn't be ruled out in the unpredictable setting of real violence. If someone attacks you with serious intent, you should be fighting for your life, because it might be on the line.
     
  10. Commissar Gold Belt

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    Well, it boils down to reasonable force. If a guy attacks you, you can't kill him obviously. Unless, of course, he attacks you with a knife. Against a knife, you would be allowed to shoot them (unless there's a likelyhood of innocents being killed, like in a shopping mall or a bar). There's also the 21 foot rule, with which if an assailant wielding a knife is within 21 feet of you, you will not be able to safetly unholdster your handgun, aim, and fire on the attacker. Against a knife, escape is a realistic option, because a knife isn't a range weapon. On the other hand, a steady and unrelenting closed handed attack (punches/kicks) is surprisingly effective against an attacker.
     
  11. Commissar Gold Belt

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    Legally, there has to be reason to believe that your life is on the line, in order for you to respond with lethal force. And yes, attacking someone's ACL does constitute as lethal force as well.

    Although, there have been situations where people have been able to claim using lethal force in self defense was reasonable, citing the fact that if a fight is on the ground, your option of disengaging from the confrontation isn't there, therefore constituting the situation more serious
     
  12. BJJ-guy Blue Belt

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    best point
     
  13. Balto Silver Belt

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    How does attacking someone's ACL constitute lethal force? Is there any precedent for this?

    I'm not a lawyer, but I try to have a decent understanding of the self-defense laws. I am almost certain that for something to be considered "lethal force" there has to be a reasonable chance that it could result in the death of the other person. I can't imagine any court ruling that an attack on an ACL is something that has a reasonable chance of killing someone. But, then again, I could be wrong.

    I notice that you are from Canada, so please keep in mind that I am referring to American law here as a reference. If I'm wrong on this, I'd like to know because that would be surprising to me.
     
  14. Shemhazai Black Belt

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    In about 80% (I'm pulling the number out of my ass, but it might seriously be even higher) of knife attack cases, the victim doesn't realize that the attacker has a knife until long after he/she has been stabbed. Even in cases where the attack itself is not a complete surprise, the knife simply isn't seen, and usually felt as merely a hard strike to the body.

    This should tell you that 1) pausing to assess the severity of the attack before responding appropriately is completely unrealistic, and that 2) violent confrontations are completely unpredictable.
     
  15. Trickster*** Banned Banned

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    For me using BJJ is a civil way to hurt someone...I trained in a very ummmm violent style of Kung Fu and if I ever got in a real fight that is what I would instinctively use...putting my thumb 3 inches into someones eye socket, ripping off their ear or nose etc.

    It was drilled into my head and you always make sure you SURVIVE a fight not WIN a fight...so I try to inflict as much damage as humanly possible as fast as possible...worry about cops and judges later! As long as you walk away!!

    So if I had to JUST break an arm or something I would consider the guy very lucky!

    I hope this post doesnt sound arrogant like Im some crazy fuck who goes around blinding people but when push comes to shove that is how I view a fight!

    Oh by the way I was stabbed once and easily couldve died so I promised myself to never take cahnces again
     
  16. Prokofievian Silver Belt

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    The only lethal attack to the ACL was to Achilles himself I believe.
     
  17. Shemhazai Black Belt

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    Again, I'm ruling out cases of consenting bareknuckle duels outside the ol' tavern, I have acts of unprovoked or criminally/sexually motivated violence in mind. But if someone I don't know or trust takes a swing at me, rushes me and takes me to the ground, or even just signals that he is about to attack me, then obviously his intent is to harm me. What other kind of violent intent is there, really? Any old haymaker can kill you, and to give your attacker the benefit of the doubt is sheer lunacy.
     
  18. 2om30 Red Belt

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    i would use love...understanding, and acceptance...
     
  19. Balto Silver Belt

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    I think the fact chokes may be considered "lethal force" is blown out of proportion.

    If you ever find yourself in a minor situation where you are not seriously threatened, it would obviously be inappropriate to choke someone unconscious. It would also be inappropriate to break bones. However, I don't see any reason why a trained grappler would even consider doing so in such a minor situation. If someone is making such a weak attack against you that you don't think it has any potential to cause you serious injury, all you would need to do is control them. Tie them up, take them down easily, pin them, etc. There would never be any need to choke them unconscious or break any joints.

    The only time you should even consider fully applying submissions is if you feel that you would be seriously injured if you didn't. Perhaps the guy has become extremely violent and is trying to smash your face in. Perhaps you are outnumbered. Perhaps he has a weapon. In those cases, it makes sense to fully apply chokes and joint locks. It also be completely reasonable and legal to do so. Even if a court determined you to have used "lethal force" (and they might not even determine that since there are so many factors), it would certainly be a reasonable level of force given the fact that you sincerely believed that you might suffer serious injury from the attack.

    So I think in almost all cases, unless you are a sick bastard who likes choking people for fun, chokes are just fine for use in situations where you would actually need them. If someone mouths off to you and shoves you a little, and you respond by choking them unconscious, you are the aggressor there and deserve whatever trouble you get. If someone comes at you with the serious intention to cause harm and you choke them unconscious to neutralize it, you were probably justified in using it in the first place.
     
  20. MonstaDon White Belt

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    If you live in MA, as long as you don't use a weapon, and sometimes even if you do, you're straight. I don't worry about it at all. Unless you went to the kid/guys house, knocked on his door and started beating him up, you're going to get a slap on the wrist. If someone is attacking me though I stand and bang, but if it ever went to the ground, I'd use BJJ of course, though I'd more likely just ground and pound.

    BJJ is 100% sport for me, for the most part, unless the dude was punching holes in my face, then if I could get a Kimura or some type of choke off I'd take it.

    Honestly, it's best to avoid fights. I try to be as humble as possible myself.
     

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