Escapes against higher belts

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by The Colonel, Mar 19, 2008.

  1. The Colonel

    The Colonel Purple Belt

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    So I've run into something lately that's made me wonder. When it comes to side control escapes, I have no problem getting out from under whites and blue belts (unless they have very strong wrestling backgrounds or a significant size/strength advantage) even then I can still usually get out from under them. But with my instructor, who is a very experienced purple belt I just can't get out from under him. Its not like I don't know what to do, and essentially the same side control escapes you use against a white belt you'd use against a purple, but the guy just shuts me down. I have about 20-30lbs on him and I'm an experienced blue (many think ready to make the jump to purple) but frankly its embarrassing just getting owned from the top like that.

    Most people I roll with (the majority really) can't pass my guard so working side control hardly ever comes up, but with my instructor I just get tooled if he ever manages to pass my guard.

    Thoughts? Advice?
     
  2. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    i have the same problem, exactly
     
  3. Shaldag

    Shaldag Orange Belt

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    start from bottom crosside (or any position you want to improve on) with all those white and blue belts who cant pass your guard.
     
  4. Xxcx

    Xxcx The Ghost With The Most

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    All you have to do is work from that position as much as you can in rolling. When you escape side mount, start back in it again. Get everybody you can to start in side mount and eventually you'll gain enough experience. It will start becoming more comfortable and easy.

    The key to escaping side mount is being patient. You have to work to get control (cross face, wrist control, underhooks, trying to hook his leg, control the hips, improving your position, prevent him from getting positions/submissions) and not give the opponent any opportunities. When you find enough space or an opening, explode out.

    Don't try to use strength, just technique, and always work to escape. Don't stay still and wait for something to happen. Make it happen.
     
  5. The Colonel

    The Colonel Purple Belt

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    I never get submitted from there, even by my instructor, and its not like I have issues escaping side control-its that I have issues escaping side control from purple belts and up.

    What I'm getting at, is for example an upa will work against a white belt or a black belt, but getting it to work against higher level belts becomes very difficult.

    As far as having all the guys I roll with starting on top from side control with me, I'd like to do that (especially since there is a tournament coming up in May) I'm afraid that I may come off as acting like I'm better than everyone else or that I'm being uppity, even though I am the assistant instructor at my club.
     
  6. 350 lbs fist

    350 lbs fist Black Belt

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    Do you alternate escapes?
    Or do you stick to one favourite?

    Higher belts are usually so much more forward thinking and instinctive in their approach that they can easily spot the setup for 1 escape and prevent or counter it.
    If you can alternate between 2 or 3 it's easier to keep him guessing and you might catch him off-balance.
     
  7. blanko

    blanko Guest

    simple answer: your jiu jitsu just isn't good enough.
     
  8. mmyers

    mmyers Orange Belt

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    Im pretty sure if you just say you need to work on that area of your game no ones gonna think poorly of you. How else can you get good at somethign without practicing it
     
  9. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    I have had guys almost half my weight pin me

    it is a skill man, the way they find that right spot on your ribs, their death grip and the small correcting motions whern you try to escape
     
  10. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Heavy guys often are actually easier to pin, since they can't get off their backs, too much weight.

    At any rate, I've been focusing on side control escapes a lot lately, and here's what I've found: There is zero magic solution. Improving side control escapes is a matter of adding detail after detail after detail. Each detail may only improve your ability by 3%. Add ten such details, and your ability is improved by 30%.

    Common mistakes I've discovered in my own game and worked to fix:

    - Not getting proper hand positioning, not understanding where your hands need to start and where you want to go from there.

    - Not bridging into the opponent, instead just lazily shrimping away

    - Not going for half guard or a butterfly hook, instead trying futilely to get full guard first.

    - Not going to your knees as an alternative

    - Not using escapes in combination.
     
  11. Sherdog_Mutt

    Sherdog_Mutt Purple Belt

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    I concur with this. Nailing an escape (any escape) against a higher belt is a matter of timing and setup. In order to escape from side control, you've got to time your escape attempts just right and chaining your escapes together really helps you out.

    Personally, to escape side control I chain together: 1) traditional hip escape, 2) shrimp underneath the guy's legs while peeling the elbow (of the arm controlling my head) upwards escape, and 3) the bridge and go to your knees escape. If I have a sliver a space to work with, I immediately go into this routine. More often than not, I'm able to escape. If not, at least the guy is too busy trying to maintain side control and will have difficulty attacking.
     
  12. wildcard_seven

    wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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    ^^^^^^
    2) shrimp underneath the guy's legs while peeling the elbow (of the arm controlling my head) upwards escape

    What the hell is this? Never heard of it. Can somebody clarify or have an example?
     
  13. Shaldag

    Shaldag Orange Belt

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    If your having trouble escaping the higher ranking guy you need to work with the lower ranking guys from that position, ppl can give you all the tips in the world on how to escape but you will not be able to make them work on the purple belt before you have them down on the white belts. Your pretty much wasting your time if you work on the easy positions with them and just smash them from there.

    Also if you feel like someone will be offended by you initiating from a bad position, start from your guard, put your own ego in your back pocket and let them pass to crosside, they will feel good that they passed your guard, and you'll get to work from where you need.
     
  14. Gsoares2***

    Gsoares2*** Banned Banned

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    practice?
     
  15. Sherdog_Mutt

    Sherdog_Mutt Purple Belt

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    Ask your instructor. It's a hard escape to describe and if you do it wrong, you'll get your back taken. However, it's a really effective escape when the guy's doing everything he can to prevent the traditional hip escape.
     
  16. hayliks

    hayliks Banned Banned

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    the underhook is your friend
     
  17. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Is that the "running escape" you're talking about? Usually if he is fighting like hell to preven the hip escape, you can get the running escape or the bridging over escape to work.

    Btw, the new book "The Strategic Guard" has awesome material on side control escapes, incredibly technical and detailed. Positional escapes require superb technique, good timing, and a lot of details. There's no shortcut to getting good at them.

    Like Hayliks says, most side controls can be avoided by simply grabbing the underhook AND guarding your near arm while the guy is coming into side control. Once he has flattened you out, the underhook isn't as useful, and puts you at risk for kimura.

    A good way to practice this is to let a blue belt pass your guard while you keep your near arm in "halfguard paw" position and your other arm in "seatbelt position." Stay on your side. It's exceedlingly difficult for your opponent to take side control if you hold your arms like that. Basically I have come to realize that being under side control is just like half guard, except you don't have a leg.
     
  18. Sherdog_Mutt

    Sherdog_Mutt Purple Belt

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    Not exactly Saulo's "running escape". Similar idea in that you turn your back to the guy. However, you're escaping the head control by peeling his elbow forward (picture a kimura on the top guy but without the grip). All you're trying to do is to get him offbalanced forward... without the head control and basically on top of you while you're on your side. You can then squirm underneath him, move your hips and recover open guard and occasionally half-guard. This is unlike the running escape where you keep "running" away from the guy until you're on your knees.

    I need to go check out the Strategic Guard book. Seriously, you need to stop mentioning instructionals to me. I keep buying everything you've mentioned (good or bad).
     
  19. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Ahh, I know what you mean. I think of that as a bridging escape, since you are basically throwing the guy over you. He bases out to stop being swept over you, and then you use the space to escape the normal way. This is a classic combination.

    It's hard to escape against guys who are good without using a combo like that.

    I really should be an instructional salesman.
     
  20. The Colonel

    The Colonel Purple Belt

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    Basically my side control escapes are limited to either A) putting them back into my closed guard-or half guard, or B) escaping to my knees and working from there.

    All my escapes work off of having your far arm under their arm (to protect against Americans, kimuras etc.) and my near arm is blocking their hip with my forearm. I was always taught that that is the arm position you absolutely have to have, protecting your far arm and your near arm elbow tucked in and blocking their hip.

    I don't know Saulo's "running escape (I'm familiar with it, but have never tried it) and I really don't mess with things like triangles or anything like that from the bottom.

    I'm thinking about checking out Gustavo Machado's "Great Escapes" dvd just to get more techniques to work with, but like I said, I don't really have any trouble escaping from white belts and even 90% of blue belts (whenever I visit other schools for a drop in). My instructor just shuts me down though.

    I almost think I'd be better served to work my escapes against the purple than against the other guys in my class (there are only about 5 students counting myself, I train at a very small club in nowhere Montana).
     

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