Equality of opportunity..?

[Jack V Savage]

You don't inherit debt. Unless its debt your tax dollars are paying to reduce gubmint debt. You guys can't be that clueless about personal finance.

Not literally, but the effect is the same (if you inherit nothing and you have to pay medical bills and funeral bills, etc., and you don't have the money).

 

[OldGoat]

Not literally, but the effect is the same (if you inherit nothing and you have to pay medical bills and funeral bills, etc., and you don't have the money).

As that may be, the big problem is proper incentives for behavior. If benefits and assistance weren't strictly for vote buying but were tied to concrete performance I don't think any rational conservative would argue against them. But since liberal politicians care strictly for power and not improving the lives of people we will always have this fight. Until demographics change substantially.

 

[Jack V Savage]

As that may be, the big problem is proper incentives for behavior. If benefits and assistance weren't strictly for vote buying but were tied to concrete performance I don't think any rational conservative would argue against them. But since liberal politicians care strictly for power and not improving the lives of people we will always have this fight. Until demographics change substantially.

That's meaningless BS, though, isn't it? It's not like "vote buying" is a real thing. That's just conservative demagoguery against any programs that benefit the non-rich.

 

[Denter]

That's meaningless BS, though, isn't it? It's not like "vote buying" is a real thing. That's just conservative demagoguery against any programs that benefit the non-rich.

You could at least try an honest response to his point.

"Benefit" is a meaningless term. Old Goat had a problem with payments that do not encourage positive behavior. Care to comment on that?

 

[ultramanhyata]

That's silly.

How do pediatricians performing life altering surgery or engineers doing their jobs equate with government creating artificial barriers to success?

The point is that Man, through ingenuity and action, can alter that which "naturally" exists. Man can improve Man's environmental lot.

The idea that human engineering is an absolute necessity for the advancement of the race - in every sphere of human undertaking except economics - is a preposterous and convenient fiction preached as gospel by capitalists.

 

[Liquid Smoke]

I think there's a loose correlation between IQ and wealth. There are good old boys that start a tomato canning company that are probably worth 100 times what a college physics professor is. What's really funny is that these equalist ideologies originate with some fancy pants liberal arts professors who are probably really smart but they're so up their own ass that they're useless.

 

[Jack V Savage]

You could at least try an honest response to his point.

In what possible sense was my response not honest? He's just throwing out some hackish, and meaningless assertions that benefits and assistance for the poor are for "vote buying" and that conservatives would support them if they met some unexplained criteria.

"Benefit" is a meaningless term. Old Goat had a problem with payments that do not encourage positive behavior. Care to comment on that?

OldGoat's post was impossibly vague. If he had a problem with any particular real program, we could discuss it. If he's just going to say that all actually-existing programs are "vote buying" (honestly, it feels stupid even typing that), what else is there to say other than to note that it's just how the right demagogues any program that benefits the non-rich?

 

[Deleted member 159002]

Outliers. I think it's common sense that, in general, a smart person has greater earning potential than an unintelligent person.

 

[Captain Davis]

That's meaningless BS, though, isn't it? It's not like "vote buying" is a real thing. That's just conservative demagoguery against any programs that benefit the non-rich.

Funny, when I hear terms like benefit programs and rich this and rich that, I see it as liberal demagoguery against the fiscally responsible.

And if you really believe that vote buying isn't real, you've lost every ounce of creditibility that I've ever given to you, which is a lot. I know you are liberal, but I didn't think you had totally sold your soul to the Left.

 

[Liquid Smoke]

Outliers. I think it's common sense that, in general, a smart person has greater earning potential than an unintelligent person.

True. But there is money to be made doing things that aren't technically difficult but if you hustle you can do alright for yourself. The most wealthy take stock of their natural abilities and pursue endeavors that are best suited to them.

 

[ultramanhyata]

Excuses don't make anyone successful. I might agree with you if all I did was research facts and figures on the internet, but I've known people who came from shit and made something of themselves. Playing the blame game doesn't work.

Hey, I've read about black people who, through ambition, hard work and the courage to take risks, escaped slavery in the South. I guess that is evidence that the 19th century plantation system was a fair and acceptable operation.

 

[Captain Davis]

True. But there is money to be made doing things that aren't technically difficult but if you hustle you can do alright for yourself. The most wealthy take stock of their natural abilities and pursue endeavors that are best suited to them.

This.

Education does not equal ambition.

 

[Captain Davis]

Hey, I've read about black people who, through ambition, hard work and the courage to take risks, escaped slavery in the South. I guess that is evidence that the 19th century plantation system was a fair and acceptable operation.

you seem mad.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Funny, when I hear terms like benefit programs and rich this and rich that, I see it as liberal demagoguery against the fiscally responsible.

What do you mean the "fiscally responsible"? No one has any opposition to the actual fiscally responsible. People do object to policy changes over the past few decades that have led to a huge increase in inequality, which has had the effect of keeping wages pretty flat for the overwhelming majority of the population. What liberals like me want is when real GDP growth doubles (as it did from 1980 to 2003) for most Americans to see their standard of living come close to doubling rather than something like this:

There's no demagoguery there; just a belief that policy has not served the public well over the past 30 years or so.

And if you really believe that vote buying isn't real, you've lost every ounce of creditibility that I've ever given to you, which is a lot. I know you are liberal, but I didn't think you had totally sold your soul to the Left.

I haven't sold my soul. "Vote buying" is a silly attack on the safety net that doesn't survive two seconds of thought.

you seem mad.

Doesn't that kind of response to his legitimate point just lower the level of discourse here?

 

[OldGoat]

That's meaningless BS, though, isn't it? It's not like "vote buying" is a real thing. That's just conservative demagoguery against any programs that benefit the non-rich.

It's far from meaningless bs. It is fact. If the left were interested in solving problems instead of creating a permenant dependent underclass progress could be made. Unfortunately, the left is far too evil.

 

[Captain Davis]

What do you mean the "fiscally responsible"? No one has any opposition to the actual fiscally responsible. People do object to policy changes over the past few decades that have led to a huge increase in inequality, which has had the effect of keeping wages pretty flat for the overwhelming majority of the population. What liberals like me want is when real GDP growth doubles (as it did from 1980 to 2003) for most Americans to see their standard of living come close to doubling rather than something like this:

There's no demagoguery there; just a belief that policy has not served the public well over the past 30 years or so.

And the GOP hasn't soley been in charge for that entire 30 years. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Doesn't that kind of response to his legitimate point just lower the level of discourse here?

My response is due to his comment being a knee jerk, racially motivated, response that is not even relevant. He knows that I am Southern and was attempting to paint me as a redneck, thus hoping to get me riled up. What exactly is his point?

 

[Jack V Savage]

It's far from meaningless bs. It is fact. If the left were interested in solving problems instead of creating a permenant dependent underclass progress could be made. Unfortunately, the left is far too evil.

So, yeah, this speaks for itself.

And the GOP hasn't soley been in charge for that entire 30 years. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Who cares? We're not trying to assign blame; we're trying to figure out the best policy going forward. And tax cuts for the rich, cuts in the inheritance tax, cuts in nutritional and educational aid, and cuts in the social safety net (what the GOP is currently proposing) aren't going to fix the problem, are they?

My response is due to his comment being a knee jerk, racially motivated, response that is not even relevant. He knows that I am Southern and was attempting to paint me as a redneck, thus hoping to get me riled up. What exactly is his point?

He was illustrating the point that the fact that some people succeed in spite of bad policy doesn't mean that policy isn't bad. What Southerners often don't realize is that the rest of us don't expect criticisms of slavery to be controversial or to rile anyone up.

 

[Captain Davis]

You know Jack, I might even give some of what you say a thought, but when the policy makers that you believe in are all part of the 1%, it doesn't translate very well. If you honestly think that those liberal politicians actually give one flying fuck about you, me, or anyone else that can't win them a vote, you are not near as bright as I thought.

 

[ultramanhyata]

Society is losing millions of great minds that will never be given the chance to run a successful enterprise, be part of a research team, serve as a medical specialist, etc. due to no fault of their own.

Oh yes. The reason so many Americans living hardscrabble, indebted, hand to mouth, pay check to paycheck existences is a tragedy is because some of those people are our potentially "best and brightest". If we could just filter these whiz kids out and allow them to take their rightful place at the top of the economic food chain then everything would be fine. The system would be fair and the tragedy averted. (Because all these other folks, I mean, come on, they're some kind of dimwits who obviously deserve to be shit-eating poor.)

This is what American "progressivism" has become in the 21st century.

 

[Captain Davis]

He was illustrating the point that the fact that some people succeed in spite of bad policy doesn't mean that policy isn't bad. What Southerners often don't realize is that the rest of us don't expect criticisms of slavery to be controversial or to rile anyone up.

If in fact that was his point, it was bit of a reach. That argument isn't even relevant to todays society.