enemy

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dys > casey jones/path of resistance
 
beatenup said:
would you rather choke and sub your enemy out or would you rather punch him out?

(i know this is the grappling section but you could maybe mount your enemy and then punch him out)
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Enemy?!?! Are you posting from inside a particularly bad 1970's kung fu movie?
 
First Id hang em, then Id shoot, then I'd kill! (Pee Wee Herman)

I only went to the ground once in a street fight and it was more childish GnP type of thing....but I'd rather KO him, however, in an MMA match Id rather sub him....weird huh?
 
Trickster said:
I only went to the ground once in a street fight and it was more childish GnP type of thing....but I'd rather KO him, however, in an MMA match Id rather sub him....weird huh?
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I dont think thats weird at all -

in a real fight you would probably be in less legal trouble for KOing a punk than giving him a compound arm fracture, but in MMA submissions tend to require a lot of technical skill (not that knockouts dont, it just isnt as obvious)
 
X-PacGuard said:
I dont think thats weird at all -

in a real fight you would probably be in less legal trouble for KOing a punk than giving him a compound arm fracture, but in MMA submissions tend to require a lot of technical skill (not that knockouts dont, it just isnt as obvious)
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Really, I would think the opposite. People can and do die from being knocked out on the street. They could have a medical condition or hit their head on the way down on a piece of furniture or even the hard floor. I always assumed that you were in a better legal position if you broke his arm or knee, because it would allow you to get away easier without being assaulted again. But a choke or KO can kill.

I've heard of several cases where people got in trouble for applying chokeholds, but IMO a choke can be much safer than a KO when done by a trained professional. You can control the fall and how long they are out. I've only heard of 1 cases where someone died in training, and 1 case where someone died in a street fight from a guillotine. But I guess a jury usually has a hard time seeing it that way.

(The training accident occurred in a judo class in Vietnam. The sensei was demonstrating a choke escape and asked an over-eager student to put him in a choke hold. Unfortunately, the student choked him unconscious, then dead. I would hate to have been that guy.)
 
Frodo said:
Really, I would think the opposite. People can and do die from being knocked out on the street. They could have a medical condition or hit their head on the way down on a piece of furniture or even the hard floor. I always assumed that you were in a better legal position if you broke his arm or knee, because it would allow you to get away easier without being assaulted again. But a choke or KO can kill.

I've heard of several cases where people got in trouble for applying chokeholds, but IMO a choke can be much safer than a KO when done by a trained professional. You can control the fall and how long they are out. I've only heard of 1 cases where someone died in training, and 1 case where someone died in a street fight from a guillotine. But I guess a jury usually has a hard time seeing it that way.

(The training accident occurred in a judo class in Vietnam. The sensei was demonstrating a choke escape and asked an over-eager student to put him in a choke hold. Unfortunately, the student choked him unconscious, then dead. I would hate to have been that guy.)
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Cops I train with would agree ... if you're going to choke someone in a fight, it had better be a serious case of self-defense, not a bar room brawl. Basically its seen as an attempt to kill (letting go after they pass out is generally interpreted to mean you thought you'd killed the guy) - fine if you're fighting for your life, not so good if its just a 'fist-fight'.

They also warned about throwing (or slamming) too hard - juries tend to think if you're good enough to throw someone than you're good enough to control how hard you throw (ie you're an 'expert' - cue Kung-fu music). Punching isn't as bad, as judges and juries are more likely to concede that hitting too hard was an accident ... ie they tend to think of punching as just throwing wild fists, where anything can happen.
 
Frodo said:
I've heard of several cases where people got in trouble for applying chokeholds, but IMO a choke can be much safer than a KO when done by a trained professional. You can control the fall and how long they are out. I've only heard of 1 cases where someone died in training, and 1 case where someone died in a street fight from a guillotine. But I guess a jury usually has a hard time seeing it that way.
Many police departments consider all strangulation/choking techniques to be "lethal force" since they are inherently potentially deadly. This means if a criminal is punching a cop in the face the cop could use taser, baton, or striking in response but might be prohibited from using choking techniques. The RNC has fallen out of favor due to numerous in custody deaths.

Strikes to the head are generally not considered to be lethal force unless you are deliberately striking the eyes, throat, back of head/neck etc.

If you fuck some dirtbags joint up with a lock or submission it could be considered "grievious bodily harm". Breaking an arm, probably not. The result is the key thing though. Judo throws are a big concern. If you drop seo some dirtbag, who knows no Ukemi, hasn't warmed up, and isn't expecting it, on the pavement, he might break his fucking neck. The courts will ask, "Could you reasonably have been able to predict that this might happen if you used this technique?" The answer is yes.

Force used in self defense must be both reasonable and proportional. Unfortunately, you can get used to using stuff in the gym every day that is safe to practice with trained athletes/martial artists that the courts will not look at the same way you do.

If you get in a street fight with some guy throwing haymakers and you choke the shit out of him, you may be unpleasantly surprised to find that your local prosecutors office considers your use of BJJ to be "lethal/grievious bodily harm" level of force and your assailants punches to be merely "assaultive".
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Judo throw to vicious GnP followed by a RNC. cant beat a good choke out. I love to see submissions i personally am not skilled enough quite yet to do too many of them
 
in re: the legal stuff, i dont't know a lot of criminal law, but I can tell you that almost everything is subject to prosecutorial discretion --I would expect that more important that what type of force is used will be the total situation, do you have a history of picking fights?, does the attacker?, etc.

the point about a jury expecting everyone who trains to be an "expert" also is a good one - think about the omoplata. it is exotic looking and since the guy hitting it doesnt even use both hands, it appears to be total ownage (expert-level ownage?), but against an untrained drunk-ass, anyone with a few months BJJ training could hit it.
 
I'd sweep the leg, Johnny.

ie: Option #4.
 
Ive though about the choke and possible legal concequences. Its hard to say how it would go. I think if you showed the jury that you are a BJJ practicioner and proved to them chokes are 99.9% safe by maybe showing them videos of people being choked out in comps and have an expert blackbelt on the stand most juries would relize you had no intentions of killing him and actually took one of the least damaging courses of action by going for a choke.

Hard to say for sure but if presented properly I dont see how any reasonable jury would not see that the choke is generally harmless if applied by a trained BJJ practicioner.

I mean if you were defending yourself you were just diffusing the situation in the way you were trained to do.

So I think it could be a valid defense to get at least manslaughter if you were say defending yourself from an attacker and somehow he died. It should get you off of any attempted murder BS anyway.
 
There was a case where a larger, drunk teenager got out of his car to attack a much smaller teen at a McDonalds drive-through. The smaller guy got the bigger dude in a guillotine, while the bigger guy kept trying to slam him into the concrete. He ended up collapsing his trachea, and the police officer at the scene thought he was just drunk and not choking after the hold was released. He eventually died, and the teen's parents tried to bring up charges against the other guy. However, the security cameras showed the bigger guy was the aggressor and I don't believe charges were filed. Sad, but you shouldn't go around attacking people.
 
I'd go for the choke.

Much less exertion and less pain to the knuckles to just pinch off the arteries. (Kind of the Judo way huh?)
 
If it was a seriously justified fight where I was gravely wronged [only time i'd fight anyways] then I'd love to pound him out then apply submissions on every limb I know.
 
Kick him in the nuts and run away. If he still comes after you, front kick him in the gut. Usually body shots don't show any scars. If he's on PCP, and still coming; tackle him to the ground and soccer kick him in the ribs.

Then yell, "Now look at you!"

If he gets up again. Kick him in the thigh over and over til he collapses.

Then say ,"You win."

I think your legs are the most important body part in a street fight.

Run away. Run away...
 
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