EBI 6! WOW! Look at that line up!!!

[CYKO]

ADCC has the right idea. If you can't tap them in the first 5 min. Points kick in. Fuck the draws.

It's better than the EBI rules imo, although it also has its own flaws. I like the EBI tourney generally, but the thing I don't like about their overtime rules is that it's feels phony, like dominant position is handed out without being earned and then everyone's told to sub/escape and the best "time" is what matters.... How is that better than a draw? Even if there is a sub at the end, it's cool, but rubs me the wrong way just a tad.

I hate to say it, but the only true sub only rules are no time limit, like the old school Gracies, the Rose Gracie tournaments (I think) and even the LI BJJ kumite of way back when. Ya the matches can be long and boring at times, but the good ones are really good.

 

[mataleaos]

Whats wrong with what he says about sub only? Doesn't it make BJJ more exciting to watch? Doesn't it mean more subs?

Personally I don't think I could watch much BJJ if it was points based instead of sub based.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think he's got his opinion, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

It does not necessarily mean more subs, and it does not necessarily make it more exciting to watch. But that's fine. The most fun grappling matches to watch are usually mis-matches (where one person is significantly better than the others, like what often happens at EBI, which I love) and then also certain grapplers just always go for it.

The points vs sub only thing will always be a hot debate topic, but there are lots of boring matches in each format, and there will always be some exciting matches in each format. There are some of a few pros and cons for each. It also depends on what you find exciting. if you find a tense back and forth match exciting, then points can be very fun if both people are going for it. Things that get you points usually are getting you closer to a submission anyways. Also, points force people to open up and make bad decisions, and get tapped.If someone has to defend both hooks when their back is being taken then they are easier to choke. Someone that doesn't have to worry about being scored on can mount a better defense earlier.

But points matches have their downfall too in terms of excitement. Some people will get ahead on points and game the system to stall out a win. Or they'll be down on points and wait until there's 20 seconds left to attempt one sweep that will put them ahead with the time expiring.

Great grapplers will always game the rules to win, no matter the format, because submitting great grapplers is fucking hard. People can even stall in EBI to get to the overtime rounds.

There is no perfect format. Also we have to decide what we value? If we value entertainment for a more casual audience, then I think EBI is a by far the most entertaining format. Depending on what we value as athletes, we should compete in what we prefer. I think people should be able to compete in any rule set and succeed, but that's neither here nor there.

If I have any problem with any of Eddie's opinions, it's that guys that are focused on the sub should be able to still sub in points matches. Marcelo never did sub only except for a couple of times, and he submitted 90% + of his matches at adcc.

This is getting too long. I like what Eddie is trying to do for jiu-jitsu and I think he's awesome. I hope my post didn't convey that I dislike Eddie or disagree with him. I love what he's doing.

 

[mataleaos]

Which is why I prefer EBI.

Anything can be boring regardless of the ruleset.

This is so absolutely true. Most bjj practitioners don't like watching bjj. That's why I think a lot of the talk about what rule set is more fun to watch is a little bit silly to begin with. But it's still interesting.

the overall point of BJJ which is to get the submission.

Maybe it is. It's an interesting question, but I'm not sure it is. And hell when i train I dive on rolling kimuras and guillotines, and I'm always trying to tap people out. I love catch wrestling and I think it's boring to not go for the tap. But when people say BJJ is all about getting the tap, I'm not sure that it is. I'm not sure that it isn't, but while it doesn't apply to everyone, a lot of the people I meet that think it's all about the tap tend to get dominated often. A lot of them would rather get swept, passed, mounted, back taken, and win with a wrist lock while someone is on their back, instead of sweeping, passing, mounting, taking the back, and choking someone.

I say that but still in all, most of my favorite grapplers to watch care very little about risking points if it means they can finish. I think developing that style just has a longer learning curve and is high risk high reward. But I do admire it.

Yes, but there was a distinct difference in the way Tonon approached the matches and the way Miyao approached the match (yes yes, one was GI, but Joao was in EBI before, and wasn't very keen on staying offensive and looking for subs). One is a points athlete, wheres the other primarily competes in sub only events. So i would argue that the format succeeds in it's intent to develop more exciting style of fighters.

Is Joao Miyao really "points athletes" though? BJJ Heroes has catalogued 75 wins by Joao Miyao from 2013 to now. 44 of those 75 were victories via submission.

I almost always see the Miyaos going for the back to choke. As their competition got better, their rate of submissions dropped a little bit, which seems totally normal to me. The few times I've seen the Miyaos meta-gaming and stalling to win are their matches with Keenan Cornelius.

 

[Steve08]

haha I guess I can see your sarcasm now. I am really disappointed this card fell a part. I expect Gary to run through everyone at this point.

Oh and Eddie Bravo is amazing.

Don't sleep on Yuri Simoes man, he's a world champ in ADCC, nogi worlds and Pans, and he won gi worlds at purple and brown belt too. He's also beat Keenan Cornelius twice, who Tonon has gotten dominated by for the most part.

The few times I've seen the Miyaos meta-gaming and stalling to win are their matches with Keenan Cornelius.

Add to this the fact that Keenan is like, 50-60lbs heavier than the Miyaos.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Richie Martinez is sooooooo underrated-- it drives me nuts how all the 10th Planet haters never give him his due. I mean, he managed to get through most of these guys BEFORE the event even started! Beast!

He literally has never beaten any of the guys on OP's list. He's good, but still a step below elite.

Edit: apparently the post I'm quoting was sarcastic, which is appropriate, because Richie hasn't beaten hardly anyone of note.

 

[IamStryker]

Don't sleep on Yuri Simoes man, he's a world champ in ADCC, nogi worlds and Pans, and he won gi worlds at purple and brown belt too. He's also beat Keenan Cornelius twice, who Tonon has gotten dominated by for the most part.Add to this the fact that Keenan is like, 50-60lbs heavier than the Miyaos.

Thanks. I did not recognize the name yet. As I said I am more of a casual fan. I don't know everyone yet.

 

[Steve08]

Thanks. I did not recognize the name yet. As I said I am more of a casual fan. I don't know everyone yet.

It's all good. If you plan to watch the event, now you know. But yea, Simoes is legit. I wouldn't be surprised if he wins the whole thing.

 

[IamStryker]

He literally has never beaten any of the guys on OP's list. He's good, but still a step below elite.

Edit: apparently the post I'm quoting was sarcastic, which is appropriate, because Richie hasn't beaten hardly anyone of note.

This is true. Maybe Richie can rectify that on Sunday.

 

[IamStryker]

Also IIRC Dean Lister is out, as is Eddie Cummings.

I just noticed that Eddie is still being advertised for the event....

 

[Steve08]

I just noticed that Eddie is still being advertised for the event....

I have no idea why that might be the case. He got injured so he's out. His teammate, Gordon Ryan, is in.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2016/4/16/11444088/ebi-6-card-update-gordon-ryan-replaces-eddie-cummings

Gordon Ryan is also a very legit grappler, although he's not quite elite yet (he lost to Mike Perez from Atos in the most recent ADCC trials, and Perez didn't go too far in his bracket as far as I know). He should win at least one match, but we'll see. As far as his style goes, he is submission oriented, and seems to favor leglocks and taking the back to choke. He also has a nice, strong guard.

 

[klnOmega]

Submission only works best with no time limit, but obviously for televised events that is impractical.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

It's better than the EBI rules imo, although it also has its own flaws. I like the EBI tourney generally, but the thing I don't like about their overtime rules is that it's feels phony, like dominant position is handed out without being earned and then everyone's told to sub/escape and the best "time" is what matters.... How is that better than a draw? Even if there is a sub at the end, it's cool, but rubs me the wrong way just a tad.

I hate to say it, but the only true sub only rules are no time limit, like the old school Gracies, the Rose Gracie tournaments (I think) and even the LI BJJ kumite of way back when. Ya the matches can be long and boring at times, but the good ones are really good.

whats phony about the OT? dominant positions ARE handed to you without being earned, thats the point. Just like penalty shoots are handed to untie a match, or tie breaks are "handed" to players, etc there are countless examples of mayor sports that have mayor definitions (such as soccer world cups, actually or soccer tournaments have penalty shoots). The best escaping time is the last resort, sub is always most important, and the best escaping time is there so peopel wont try to stall while defending, it is really hard to sub someone elite even in dominant positions if they are not trying to escape the position.

theres nothing phony about the OT, its a way to find a winner in a sub only tournament, and there is absolutely no fucking way anyone not trying to look like bjj hipster can tell me that watching a sub only event full with draws a la poliris, is more exiting than watching something like EBI with OT rules.

 

[Ton]

Is Joao Miyao really "points athletes" though? BJJ Heroes has catalogued 75 wins by Joao Miyao from 2013 to now. 44 of those 75 were victories via submission.

I almost always see the Miyaos going for the back to choke. As their competition got better, their rate of submissions dropped a little bit, which seems totally normal to me. The few times I've seen the Miyaos meta-gaming and stalling to win are their matches with Keenan Cornelius.

All fair points. Though what i meant was = he mainly trains for and competes in points tournaments. (rather than stalls to win every points match when hes ahead)

But you definitely can't deny that he is much more hesitant to go for the sub than Tonon (or Eddie, or even Richie). Which brings me to my point; i think Miyao would go for subs MORE if he trained for and primarily competed in 'sub only' tournaments.

 

[mataleaos]

All fair points. Though what i meant was = he mainly trains for and competes in points tournaments. (rather than stalls to win every points match when hes ahead)

But you definitely can't deny that he is much more hesitant to go for the sub than Tonon (or Eddie, or even Richie). Which brings me to my point; i think Miyao would go for subs MORE if he trained for and primarily competed in 'sub only' tournaments.

I don't disagree with that. You will see Tonon dive onto a rolling guillotine/kimura/darce from top half guard and risk losing 2 points if he ends up on bottom and has to release the hold. You would never see Miyao do that. No way I can disagree with that. I guess what I would disagree with is the semantics/minutia of what you mean when you say "hesitant". Do I think Joao would be hesitant to dive onto a leg, arm, or neck to finish a sub like what I just described about Tonon? Yes. Do I think Joao would hesitate to go for an armbar from mount or a choke from the back? No. I think he would go for something like that immediately. I think Joao is the type of grappler that would rather have close to a perfect position before attempting the sub, where I think Tonon is more the type to go for the sub regardless of his positioning.

 

[Ton]

I don't disagree with that. You will see Tonon dive onto a rolling guillotine/kimura/darce from top half guard and risk losing 2 points if he ends up on bottom and has to release the hold. You would never see Miyao do that. No way I can disagree with that. I guess what I would disagree with is the semantics/minutia of what you mean when you say "hesitant". Do I think Joao would be hesitant to dive onto a leg, arm, or neck to finish a sub like what I just described about Tonon? Yes. Do I think Joao would hesitate to go for an armbar from mount or a choke from the back? No. I think he would go for something like that immediately. I think Joao is the type of grappler that would rather have close to a perfect position before attempting the sub, where I think Tonon is more the type to go for the sub regardless of his positioning.

Right you are. I'm being quite lazy with my writing. I definitely agree that Miyao will go for the sub if the opportunity is presented, but will rarely endanger losing his position for one.

 

[Daveb]

I'd like to see a 10 minute match. First 5 min points are counted. Last 5 min no points. Cash bonus for submission. That way if after 5 min you are down on points it forces you to push the action looking for a sub. If you are up on points you are more willing to try for a submission for the cash prize.

I think the ADCC way usually leads to stalling for the first half of the match but switching would help create action.

 

[mataleaos]

Right you are. I'm being quite lazy with my writing. I definitely agree that Miyao will go for the sub if the opportunity is presented, but will rarely endanger losing his position for one.

You're not being lazy I'm just writing more than I need to lol

 

[Uchi Mata]

This is true. Maybe Richie can rectify that on Sunday.

I highly doubt it. For two reasons: one, the obvious one that most of those guys dropped out and the lineup is a lot weaker, so he won't even have the chance to fight most of those guys. And two, because he lacks the main thing you need to become elite: a room full of high level training partners dedicated only towards winning competitions. I don't really have a problem with 10th Planet in general, but their lack of concentration of their best guys in one place makes it very hard for them to reach the highest levels because they're branching off to run their own schools (and thus spend their time training with lower level guys) too early. You need to be a dedicated competitive black belt with minimal if any teaching duties for years before you're going to start competing with guys like Galvao or Simoes. Do any of EB's guys have that?

 

[CYKO]

whats phony about the OT? dominant positions ARE handed to you without being earned, thats the point. Just like penalty shoots are handed to untie a match, or tie breaks are "handed" to players, etc there are countless examples of mayor sports that have mayor definitions (such as soccer world cups, actually or soccer tournaments have penalty shoots). The best escaping time is the last resort, sub is always most important, and the best escaping time is there so peopel wont try to stall while defending, it is really hard to sub someone elite even in dominant positions if they are not trying to escape the position.

theres nothing phony about the OT, its a way to find a winner in a sub only tournament, and there is absolutely no fucking way anyone not trying to look like bjj hipster can tell me that watching a sub only event full with draws a la poliris, is more exiting than watching something like EBI with OT rules.

It's handed out and that's exactly the point. Anyway, I get it that they're trying to get the subs, ppv, end the matches without draws, etc. Like I said, for the most part, I enjoy it. Just rubs me the wrong way a little is all. I like the ADCC rules better.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Is Simoes still in? If so, he's got to be the favorite.