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Dropping the hand when throwing a high kick

We were talking about the momentum of the arm, not the torso. Obviously if you have your torso going in the opposite direction of your hips when you drive in the kick it is going to rob power. Swinging the arm works to counter balance which allows you to drive your hips AND torso into the kick more which creates more power. When I throw a round kick, I swing out my kicking side arm but I push forward with the shoulder of that arm as I turn the hips over.

I see what your saying, but going off the gif, mirko is turning his torso the opposite direction. What caused his torso to turn was throwing the hand out too much, over compensating for his balance and probably taking power away from the kick. I think this is what LEGS was getting at, but keeping correct upper body posture is what can negate this, as you were saying with the shoulder pushing forward. I do this too, but i keep my hand up as i turn, i don't put it out.
 
I see what your saying, but going off the gif, mirko is turning his torso the opposite direction. What caused his torso to turn was throwing the hand out too much, over compensating for his balance and probably taking power away from the kick. I think this is what LEGS was getting at, but keeping correct upper body posture is what can negate this, as you were saying with the shoulder pushing forward. I do this too, but i keep my hand up as i turn, i don't put it out.

Mirko may have his flaws, but taking power away from his kicks is certainly not one of them. The GIF showing Mirko landing that high kick is if anything a perfect example of the swing creating power. If you watch that closely Mirko actually landed the kick further out than he intended, further into his rotation. In short, he hit the guy with what he intended to be the follow through portion of the kick, which is why it glanced of the top of his head vs. shin across the jaw. If you watch many of Mirko's high kick ko's he lands that kick with the arm at shoulder height with it almost parallel to the kicking leg. The swing you see in that gif below is the follow through. But Mirko has so much power in his kicks that he can land one late in the rotation and glance it off a guys head and still put his ass out! He could never have generated that kind of power that late in the kick without that violent arm swing.

Watch again close and imagine if the shin had made contact at the same time his arm and shin become just past the parallel point, he would of killed him! He just landed it late, but still with enough power to put the guy down. That is impressive!

see link for pic: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3330/3285916197_d501458721.jpg
 
Too right.
I sure wont miss this sort of crap now that I've made the move to boxing.
 
moved from what? what did you train before?
 
i see.. why convert to boxing only? just a matter of personal taste?

i guess i gonna do the same the day my hips wont let me kick anymore.
 
Mirko may have his flaws, but taking power away from his kicks is certainly not one of them. The GIF showing Mirko landing that high kick is if anything a perfect example of the swing creating power. If you watch that closely Mirko actually landed the kick further out than he intended, further into his rotation. In short, he hit the guy with what he intended to be the follow through portion of the kick, which is why it glanced of the top of his head vs. shin across the jaw. If you watch many of Mirko's high kick ko's he lands that kick with the arm at shoulder height with it almost parallel to the kicking leg. The swing you see in that gif below is the follow through. But Mirko has so much power in his kicks that he can land one late in the rotation and glance it off a guys head and still put his ass out! He could never have generated that kind of power that late in the kick without that violent arm swing.

Watch again close and imagine if the shin had made contact at the same time his arm and shin become just past the parallel point, he would of killed him! He just landed it late, but still with enough power to put the guy down. That is impressive!

see link for pic: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3330/3285916197_d501458721.jpg

yeah i'm just knit-picking on a small thing. Mirko has so much mass on his legs that he can generate power with that alone, and if any part of his leg touches your head, at many points during the rotation of the kick, your prolly goin to sleep. I'm sure he wasn't as concerned with defensive technique against that guy either.

From what I gather from what was posted earlier, it's that the arm creates stability in the stance, and that in turn allows power to be generated.
 
We were talking about the momentum of the arm, not the torso. Obviously if you have your torso going in the opposite direction of your hips when you drive in the kick it is going to rob power. Swinging the arm works to counter balance which allows you to drive your hips AND torso into the kick more which creates more power. When I throw a round kick, I swing out my kicking side arm but I push forward with the shoulder of that arm as I turn the hips over.

And this the little piece that gets overlooked in this discussion. When you throw the shoulder forward the arm will swing "out" in response to the waist attempting to catch hips up to the shoulder. Under ideal conditions the arm+shoulder rotating back in to position should line up exactly with the hip+leg rotating forward at point of contact with the target.

So can this effect be created with out the arm swing reaction? Sure. Is worth the extra training to do it? That is answer each fighter will have to answer for them self.
 
It acts as a counter balance allowing you to throw harder without falling over. Also personally I use it as away to engage my upper body in the kick as well. I don't really swing my arm back, I like to turn my whole upper body.

This is how. It also allows you to relax your upper body which means muscles that work against those executing the kick don't get engaged or at least "as engaged".

Kind of like if you clench your fist tight enough before throwing a strait punch your actually engaging muscles that work against those delivering speed and power into the punch.

IMO keep your hands up until the moment your hips turn over into the kick. Not only will it prevent you from telegraphing by dropping your hand too soon but at that point the leg is high enough and out far enough that, in most situations, the range will be outside what they need to reach you with a punch.
 
After reading through every post in this thread, I don't think it's been made clear as to how "dropping" (i.e. using it as a counterweight) assists in balance or power.

This is a fairly complex physics question, involving rotational inertia, precession and other effects. I'll try to streamline it as follow:

Angular kinetic energy ("K") is what we're looking for. . . the kick's power.

The angular speed ("ω") is the speed of the moving leg (probably the shin, but striking surfaces may differ).

The moment of inertia ("I"), also called rotational inertia, measures an object's (i.e. the leg's) resistance to change in its rotation rate. Roughly, this is "balance," since a kick-through MT style kick should have enough rotational inertia to swing the kicker around in a complete circle.

Because,
K = 1/2 x I x ω^2

power increases as balance increases.

But what about the counterbalancing hand? Three considerations: 1) the axis of pivot is vertical along the support leg; 2) the kicking leg for a Thai roundkick loses speed, inertia and power after it passes the target; and 3) a high roundkick follows a more non-horizontal axis (as compared to a mid roundkick) making recovery even more difficult.

Without counterbalancing, the rotational inertia would adversely affect the kicker's vertical position (due to the above factors). With good counterbalancing, the kicker will stay vertical longer, providing a better pivot. This allows for greater average angular speed (ω), which leads to greater power (K).

In the beginning, I alluded to "precession," which is the result of an angular force (like gravity) working on a rotational force (like a spinning top, or a roundkick). I won't go into formulae, but consider the spinning top. The more force with which it spins (i.e. dropping hands), the more likely it will stay vertical.

Earlier, somebody had mentioned kinetic linking. Kinetic linking can only do so much if a striker needs to recover his or her stance/base afterwards. For example, a right cross (or straight right, if you want to get technical), is much more powerful if the puncher would over-commit and "buckle" the front leg for more forward motion. Of course, this is not advisable for fighting. If a kicker can stay vertical longer, that is better maintain balance and apply even greater kinetic linking, he or she can now initiate a kick with more acceleration than otherwise possible. Simple Newtonian physics explains the rest:

Mass x Acceleration = Force

That is all.

The thing is most instructors will mistakenly teach their students this as a required movement when really it is not necessary at all it's just a good way to counter balance yourself. That or the instructors could have been taught incorrectly poisoning the technique of martial arts around the world by opening mcdojos. Where swinging the arm becomes a problem is when the practicioner will use that swing to generate the power in the kick rather than the force of their hips to manipulate their body weight. I may not fight professionally and I decided not to fight in the ring anymore after 4 fights just because it's something I don't plan on doing for the rest of my life. But I've seen professional fighters in the UFC who actually kick incorrectly and it's actually despicable. They are poisoning the purity of striking arts and all need to be destroyed. :mad:

lol just kidding!
:icon_lol:
 
It's actually kind of a simple concept. Swinging your hand the opposite way of the kick would take away power because it's a motion that goes against the kick. If any hand movement were to assist in the strength of the kick, it would be swinging the hand the same way you're kicking.
 
It's actually kind of a simple concept. Swinging your hand the opposite way of the kick would take away power because it's a motion that goes against the kick. If any hand movement were to assist in the strength of the kick, it would be swinging the hand the same way you're kicking.

HUH?! I'm certain you're joking.

Let's see...so even though all the Thai's arguably kick harder than anyone on the planet with that kick, they have it wrong?

Power comes from balance. The arm itself doesn't assist directly in power generation, it assists as a means of maintaining good balance throughout the kick. If you don't NEED to throw the arm back then no big deal. Either method is fine, it really should be based on which on you are more comfortable with.
 
If any hand movement were to assist in the strength of the kick, it would be swinging the hand the same way you're kicking.


if you watch that cro cop kick gif closely this IS what he does.

he swings both arms foward then extends the rear one out after the kick is launched
 
Interestnig debate.

On the one hand dropping your hand causes the push-pull of hip rotation to commence. (leg comes forward as arm pulls back,try running without swinging your arms)

On the other hand physics says that you are splitting your power into 2 different vectors.
 
Yeah, nice exaggeration.

Obvious exaggeration, right? Did u like that? Lol

It's to get the point cross that a majority of very lightweight thai's kick with the power of people much heavier than them. And they all kick with both methods.
 
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