Drew's hearty post #2: Full mount Darce thread.

[Drew Foster]

I am experimenting with the anaconda choke and finishing like a guillotine- this is gonna be a good thread anyways.

For all those with short arms- if your arms are too short you make your opponent's arm longer.

If you have the 2007 No-Gi Worlds, watch the final match on the DVD. It's a Purple belt match, and the guy finishes the Anaconda from the guard. it's awesome!

 

[platfox]

Also let me know if the Johny Hendricks video I posted a couple posts back for you! :icon_chee

Thanks for video. Yeah Hendricks gets way on his side to get deeper (almost chest to chest) and then when he grips, he repositions. By then its deep as hell. I guess like you said earlier, if you have short arms, if you can locked it in...its tight.

 

[FunkyRMe]

Wow, it's your lucky day!

Watch Johny Hendricks, member of Team Takedown and Cobrai Kai JJ under Marc Laimon, the guy that I first heard the term "European Uppercut" from. Hendricks is a fighter with shorter limbs. Watch how he dips his right shoulder low (1:38) while controlling the back of his opponents head to create the space to shoot his choking arm through. THIS is something you can practice!

This is picture perfect.

 

[Drew Foster]

Thanks for video. Yeah Hendricks gets way on his side to get deeper (almost chest to chest) and then when he grips, he repositions. By then its deep as hell. I guess like you said earlier, if you have short arms, if you can locked it in...its tight.

YEP! I like how you noticed the tap was almost immediate. The Darce is a Cobra Kai/Marc Laimon specialty, and I don't know how short your arms are, but unless you're a T-Rex, you should be able to find opportunities to make this choke work very well for you.

We may want to move this to PM, because I really wanted to keep this thread on the Darce, but how are your regular arm triangles?

 

[sha]

Here's a question for you. If you have somewhat long arms, should you still try to get as deep as possible when doing the uppercut? Or should you try instead to get your wristbone on the carotid? (what I mean is that if I shot my arm as deep as possible it would be my forearm that ends up on their carotid).

 

[Drew Foster]

I might as well add one more Darce thing here, but it relates to the full mount Darce. Notice how high Paulo Thiago lifts his elbow on the choke against Mike Swick. For a brief second, you can see how Swick's neck has been twisted hard into the choke, causing him to go to sleep very fast.

Once you step over to the "Cobrinha Darce", not all the way to full mount, but on your shin with the body side leg stepped over with the thigh squeezing in, lift your elbow high for an immediate, painful tap.

(Can anyone make GIFs of the Darces in the original 3 vids I posted?)

 

[Drew Foster]

Here's a question for you. If you have somewhat long arms, should you still try to get as deep as possible when doing the uppercut? Or should you try instead to get your wristbone on the carotid? (what I mean is that if I shot my arm as deep as possible it would be my forearm that ends up on their carotid).

Honestly, from someone with long arms, either will work fine. Some people advocate to get as deep as you can, and if you have to grab your own tricep instead of the bicep, that's fine. If my arms get "too" deep, i like to do another Marc Laimon finish I have seen. Instead of grabbing my own bicep, if my wrist is WAY past the neck, I like to simply ball up my choking arm's fist. Sometimes I'll even ball up my support arm's fist, and not even place my palm on their back. So you can even have both fists balled up, and flare your support arm out like you're trying to touch your ribs with the inside of the support arm. That will keep their head tucked big time. I do this because to grab my own tricep, I have to bend my wrist, and I like to keep my forearm and wrist straight on my choking arm, because I just feel the alignment of the bones/joint makes the choke stronger.

Play with that. There's really no such thing as going too deep though. The deeper your arm goes, the easier you can do that elbow raise finish to twist their neck into your forearm extra hard.

Put it this way, if your arm is shooting too far with the choke, that's a GOOD problem to have. Should you still try to go as deep as possible? I say yes, but do what feels the most comfortable for you. if there's shallow, dead-on, and deep, just don't go shallow. You can hurt your hand and/or wrist. I've done that before and it sucks!

Here's Alberto Crane using the fist ball method: look at 0:31 seconds in. His choking arm's fist isn't balled up, but the support arm is. Coincidentally, this is a match where the opponent went flat and Crane could have probably finished the sub if he stepped to the full mount. Instead he lost it, but later won via Armbar is the 2nd round.

 

[platfox]

YEP! I like how you noticed the tap was almost immediate. The Darce is a Cobra Kai/Marc Laimon specialty, and I don't know how short your arms are, but unless you're a T-Rex, you should be able to find opportunities to make this choke work very well for you.

We may want to move this to PM, because I really wanted to keep this thread on the Darce, but how are your regular arm triangles?

PM sent. Gotta go to work though so I'll check back later. Thanks Drew.

 

[FunkyRMe]

Play with that. There's really no such thing as going too deep though.

So the tighter the better, the deeper the better?....

Man BJJ just matches up so well with sex analogies you cant help but go for em.

 

[Drew Foster]

So the tighter the better, the deeper the better?....

Man BJJ just matches up so well with sex analogies you cant help but go for em.

Yeah I know, I kept thinking about that when I kept saying, "I like to go as deep as possible" etc.

It's the joke that keeps on giving... The Office could do a season's worth of "that's what she said" jokes by watching one or 2 BJJ seminars/classes/DVDs/etc. :icon_chee

 

[Mikey Triangles]

So the tighter the better, the deeper the better?....

Man BJJ just matches up so well with sex analogies you cant help but go for em.

Yes and no. You want your grip (mata leao style) to be as deep as possible (wrist deep), but one of the more common mistakes I encounter when teaching the darce is actually students reaching their choking arm too deep... to the point where the blade of their forearm is no longer on the Carotid Artery and is instead on the back of the neck/spine; this actually creates space for the carotid to continue flowing and puts pressure that belongs on the artery on the spine turning it into a neck crank... one of the more common reasons people tend to crank the neck with a darce is going "too deep".

For a perfect darce you want to lock it "WRIST DEEP" with your locking elbow literally pulling the guys head in, and the boniest part of your forearm flush across the soft tissue in the neck surrounding the carotid artery. From here you can use pressure to put an opponent to sleep very quickly, and there are further details to make it even faster. One being the way Paulo Thaigo "Twisted" the locked Darce.

When I say "twist" I don't mean disregard pressure and crank. Use all the same pressure and squeeze you normally would with a locked Darce, then use your "locking" elbow to pull your opponents head in as you twist your choking forearm into his neck like and upside down "Paper cutter". Add this to any tight darce for a quicker tap. I generally look for the mounted version displayed by Ryan Hall in this thread, combine that with a twist and it's game over for anyone. I'd even go as far as to say that once I get that position with a tight locked darce I don't think anyone could escape it.

 

[Drew Foster]

Yes and no. You want your grip (mata leao style) to be as deep as possible (wrist deep), but one of the more common mistakes I encounter when teaching the darce is actually students reaching their choking arm too deep... to the point where the blade of their forearm is no longer on the Carotid Artery and is instead on the back of the neck/spine; this actually creates space for the carotid to continue flowing and puts pressure that belongs on the artery on the spine turning it into a neck crank... one of the more common reasons people tend to crank the neck with a darce is going "too deep".

For a perfect darce you want to lock it "WRIST DEEP" with your locking elbow literally pulling the guys head in, and the boniest part of your forearm flush across the soft tissue in the neck surrounding the carotid artery. From here you can use pressure to put an opponent to sleep very quickly, and there are further details to make it even faster. One being the way Paulo Thaigo "Twisted" the locked Darce.

When I say "twist" I don't mean disregard pressure and crank. Use all the same pressure and squeeze you normally would with a locked Darce, then use your "locking" elbow to pull your opponents head in as you twist your choking forearm into his neck like and upside down "Paper cutter". Add this to any tight darce for a quicker tap. I generally look for the mounted version displayed by Ryan Hall in this thread, combine that with a twist and it's game over for anyone. I'd even go as far as to say that once I get that position with a tight locked darce I don't think anyone could escape it.

Mikey, since the step over or full mount Darce isn't as commonly seen as it probably will be soon, could you maybe give a word about how you went from trying the step over, to gradually adding it, to using it almost exclusively?

People here really respect you and your opinions, and the fact that you told me how you've started to use the mounted Darce almost all the time as your preference really made me further believe that this is the next direction for the Darce position. Everyone I've ever known to step over to mount with the choke begins to swear by it. I'm obviously not saying I showed this to you first, but I know we've had our talks about it.

 

[irc]

I will start by saying the Darce/Brabo is my favorite choke (as most people here know) and that this thread is not about any finishes from top half-guard, the normal finish from top-side, or the Marce/Glover finish from your back/side. If you want those, visit http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/my-darce-sucks-1298869/.

Anyways, I was told by someone that uses this finish a lot that it is getting very important. The normal knees-in or sprawl out Darce/Brabo finish from top-side and even the finish off the back/side where you walk your hips in are both very popular. Still effective, but I have been told that a lot of high level players are starting to be able to scramble and break the grips once you even have the hand locked to the bicep. They're able to create space between the neck and shoulder, and stop the choke. Finishing from a closed positon (guard or mount) can be great because if they can break the grips, you aren't creating a scramble. The mount is the obvious choice, as if you lose the choke (you won't) you'll have the full mount. I should note that the only finished Darce at ADCC 2009 (there were a TON of attempts) was when Lovato Jr. got the choke. He was stepping as if to go to full mount right as his opponent tapped.

The first time I saw this finish was when Cobrinha did it to Magno Gama at the No-Gi Worlds in 2007.

5:26 Tell me what you think about this finish, guys/gals.
Does it qualify as a full mount to you? To me it doesn't, even though you may get points, who knows... But I like it because you are using the right thigh to keep his arm and shoulder close to his neck (Cobrinha uses the top leg in the Anaconda choke to bring the shoulder/arm close to the neck). You have good base on your shin, and you're in between being on your side, and being in full mount, even though a leg is thrown over. This variation's squeezing power is SICK! I prefer this the most, and if I have to go to the full mount head-post, I will.

Full mount head post?

1:00. Notice how
on the finish from the high full mount, Ryan is posting his forehead on the mat, similar to how Garcia finishes his mounted Guillotines by posting his forehead and pushing his elbows to the mat. If you don't post your forehead, and you try to keep upright posture, you will fall forward and have no leverage to finish the squeeze.

2:30. Again,
as soon as he steps over, he keeps his balance and posts the head.

Anyone here do this. Mikey, feel free (or not) to tell people your success with this one. Lots of people know I love the choke, and a lot of people know you do to.

Thoughts on this? More links? Opinions?

I should point out that SO many people lose the Darce when an opponent scrambles flat on their back. These people transition for the N/S choke, or Kimura, etc. All they'd have to do is throw the body side leg over, and have a potentially better finish than any other Darce finish. I think finishing the Darce from the mount is at least an important skill to have, even if you don't prefer it.

This is a really, really good post. The darce is the submission I've consistently had really good success with over the past couple of years. While I have studied the choke, and know a lot of little tricks to help finish with it, I never even considered it a goal to go up to mount as a counter to their defense.

Normally if someone rolled fast to their back I would lose it by pulling out my threaded arm in order to post and not get dumped over the far side.

I learned some jiu jitsu in this thread.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

Mikey, since the step over or full mount Darce isn't as commonly seen as it probably will be soon, could you maybe give a word about how you went from trying the step over, to gradually adding it, to using it almost exclusively?

People here really respect you and your opinions, and the fact that you told me how you've started to use the mounted Darce almost all the time as your preference really made me further believe that this is the next direction for the Darce position. Everyone I've ever known to step over to mount with the choke begins to swear by it. I'm obviously not saying I showed this to you first, but I know we've had our talks about it.

I first learned the mounted Darce from a guy that used to train at Cobra Kai a few years back when Jeff Glover was teaching there. I just didn't really get it at first, and kind of disregarded it since other finishes were working so much more effectively for me. it really took me some time to get down the finer points of the darce since I learned it from a guy that learned it from a guy who knew how it worked, lol.

Anyway I used to favor the normal finish were I keep the guy on his side with me on top (semi-side control), then if they turtled I just sat out onto my side keeping the choke the same as I clocked in and finished. then when I started adding in the twist I mentioned in my last post I started favoring it over every other technique. the reason the mount finish didn't work for me at first was because (A) I didn't really understand how it worked, and (B) I didn't think it was worth practicing because I was having so much success with other methods.

Eventually I started to notice that when I caught high level (brown/black) opponents in the finishes I mentioned above they'd be able to survive and escape. I also noticed that the "mounted finish" is very easily achieved almost anytime you have a tight darce in, and you can easily hit it off the other 2 finishes that I was favoring when the opponent tries to defend.

The problem I was having with the mounted finish at first was I was trying to do a normal mount with the choke in then crank it like a guillotine! This is silly and looking back I laugh at myself. I thought I just wasn't strong enough to hold it because half the time their head would pop out as I cranked the choke, but I was just doing it totally wrong. I had no base so I was easily rolled, and I was ruining the choke and loosening it for him to pop his head out. This was a couple years ago and because of this I didn't really revisit it much until earlier this year.

The key to the mounted darce is base, and the most important thing to do is keep on full pressure. this is achieved a few ways depending on which way you enter from. the reason I feel the "mounted darce" is superior is because you have three points of balance that surround your opponent, you have your weight on your opponent, you have COMPLETE control of your opponents head, you have extremely good restriction on your opponents hips, and you've already begun squeezing the choke before hitting the mounted pos.... this just adds oodles of pressure and diminishes his chance of escape. his only options are to get choked, TRY to roll into your closed guard and get choked, TRY and maybe put you into his half-guard and still get choked, and pray to the gods that you have a garbage grip and it slips.

 

[Drew Foster]

^ Thanks man!

I even like to try the Cobrinha finish first, and as I step with my right leg, I use the right thigh to squeeze into their shoulder (similar to Rafa Mendes' thigh squeeze on the arm with his Anaconda choke) as I keep my weight on my left shin. This puts me in a in-between mount and side position. I usually stay there for a 1-2 count, then if there's no tap, I go ahead and drop the right knee to the mat and use the 3 points of balance you spoke about.

That's wild you learned it from a Cobra Kai guy though, because I was recently watching the interviews from the old Paragon DVD, and Bill Cooper shows a full mount Darce. There's not a lot of material on that DVD, but it's pretty funny, and it has some cool stuff on there. All those guys have a lot of personality.

 

[codemonkey76]

This week is gonna be darce week for me, I will report back with my results.

 

[codemonkey76]

OK, tonight I only had 3 rolls, 3 with purple belts (who i couldn't really experiment with), and one with a white belt.
I managed to hit 2 darce's on the white belt. I got them both from half-guard, and used the dropping to my hip to get the tap, didn't require much squeezing at all.

One problem i had when messing around with the darce from half-guard is if the guy has his underhook low by the hip, it's hard to get your overhook deep enough for the darce... solutions?

 

[Mikey Triangles]

OK, tonight I only had 3 rolls, 3 with purple belts (who i couldn't really experiment with), and one with a white belt.
I managed to hit 2 darce's on the white belt. I got them both from half-guard, and used the dropping to my hip to get the tap, didn't require much squeezing at all.

One problem i had when messing around with the darce from half-guard is if the guy has his underhook low by the hip, it's hard to get your overhook deep enough for the darce... solutions?

pull his head in more, and use your knee/leg for extra leverage on locking it in. Ryan hall displays this here:

 

[Drew Foster]

OK, tonight I only had 3 rolls, 3 with purple belts (who i couldn't really experiment with), and one with a white belt.
I managed to hit 2 darce's on the white belt. I got them both from half-guard, and used the dropping to my hip to get the tap, didn't require much squeezing at all.

One problem i had when messing around with the darce from half-guard is if the guy has his underhook low by the hip, it's hard to get your overhook deep enough for the darce... solutions?

2 Solutions that work very well for me:

1. Use your gable grip from half guard behind their head, and crank down as hard as you can. You kind of have to be mean with this one. Usually their legs will pop open or at least loosen enough for you to get your leg out. With your neck being cranked down it's harder than it seems to focus on keeping someone's leg trapped in between yours.

2. If you want to lock up the Darce from the halfguard, or if you've tried the gable neck crank and can't get them to give you wiggle room for your leg, shoot your arm through, and then the following part is a little complicated to type out, but I'll try. I wish I had a video i could think of where someone does it. If your right arm is shooting through, drop your right hip forward and down to all the way to the mat and raise it back up. That will usually make their underhook slide off your back/hip. Damn I wish I could explain that better but I really can't. I'm in the half guard, right leg trapped, right arm overhooked and under their neck. I don't have optimal room to lock in the Mata Leao grip. I dip my the front of my right hip to the mat in a quick motion and come back up. It's important to not go straight down, but to twist your hips just a tad. That twisting motion combined with the hip drop will make that arm fall right off. This motion will also create a reverse armbar type pressure against their overhooked arm.

EDIT: Man the motion is quite simple now that I have a good analogy. Imagine doing a sprawl on your right hip. Like they're going for a single leg on your right leg and your have to slam the mat with your right hip. That's the motion.

Jeff Glover and Mike Fowler both show this on their DVDs. Mike Fowler actually PREFERS to do the Darce from half guard this way.That's the only example I can think of where someone shows it. Lemme search through youtube and see if I can see someone use it in a match or on a video.

3. If you can just get your knee out of half guard, you've made it. They can have 1/4 guard. That's fine. Don't even worry about freeing your entire leg. Just get out of half. If you can't free your leg AT ALL, but you can still manage to get the figure-four grip with your hand on the bicep, you STILL are probably going to finish the choke. But you have to finish it differently. Instead of going for the usual finish, elongate your body and squeeze. It may feel odd at first, or every time lol, but it usually gets the job done. Skip to 4:30

 

[codemonkey76]

2 Solutions that work very well for me:

1. Use your gable grip from half guard behind their head, and crank down as hard as you can. You kind of have to be mean with this one. Usually their legs will pop open or at least loosen enough for you to get your leg out. With your neck being cranked down it's harder than it seems to focus on keeping someone's leg trapped in between yours.

2. If you want to lock up the Darce from the halfguard, or if you've tried the gable neck crank and can't get them to give you wiggle room for your leg, shoot your arm through, and then the following part is a little complicated to type out, but I'll try. I wish I had a video i could think of where someone does it. If your right arm is shooting through, drop your right hip forward and down to all the way to the mat and raise it back up. That will usually make their underhook slide off your back/hip. Damn I wish I could explain that better but I really can't. I'm in the half guard, right leg trapped, right arm overhooked and under their neck. I don't have optimal room to lock in the Mata Leao grip. I dip my the front of my right hip to the mat in a quick motion and come back up. It's important to not go straight down, but to twist your hips just a tad. That twisting motion combined with the hip drop will make that arm fall right off. This motion will also create a reverse armbar type pressure against their overhooked arm.

EDIT: Man the motion is quite simple now that I have a good analogy. Imagine doing a sprawl on your right hip. Like they're going for a single leg on your right leg and your have to slam the mat with your right hip. That's the motion.

Jeff Glover and Mike Fowler both show this on their DVDs. Mike Fowler actually PREFERS to do the Darce from half guard this way.That's the only example I can think of where someone shows it. Lemme search through youtube and see if I can see someone use it in a match or on a video.

3. If you can just get your knee out of half guard, you've made it. They can have 1/4 guard. That's fine. Don't even worry about freeing your entire leg. Just get out of half. If you can't free your leg AT ALL, but you can still manage to get the figure-four grip with your hand on the bicep, you STILL are probably going to finish the choke. But you have to finish it differently. Instead of going for the usual finish, elongate your body and squeeze. It may feel odd at first, or every time lol, but it usually gets the job done. Skip to 4:30

Your explanation powers are better than you think, i got it straight away, dip your right hip down like you are shucking their arm off. :icon_chee

Thanks guys, will try more tonight.