Downloading Instructional Torrents

[NateTx4112]

You point out my "flawed" argument with out the mere thought that your entire viewpoint is fundamentally flawed itself.

 

[lechien]

Even if there is a small decline in sales when something hits the torrent sites, the benefits of more people having it and getting better outweights that

What do you think a guy who puts out an instructional rather want?

100 people buying his DVD- 100 people showing up for a seminar

or 100 people buying his DVD, 100 downloading it- 200 people showing up for a seminar (and would probably attend the next time to)

well, I think if you are not willing to pay for the dvd, you are not willing to pay for the seminar as well. but that is just my assumption.

Rickson for exemple. never released a book or a dvd and people are not allowed to record or take notes of his seminars.

 

[lechien]

You point out my "flawed" argument with out the mere thought that your entire viewpoint is fundamentally flawed itself.

Out of curiosity and not try to pry in your personal life, Yeabee.

My guess is that you are a student, unemployed, still living with your parents.

 

[YeahBee]

Out of curiosity and not try to pry in your personal life, Yeabee.

My guess is that you are a student, unemployed, still living with your parents.

Student, temp living with my dog

 

[lechien]

Student, temp living with my dog

So you are a full time student?

How do you eat?

You are on some kind of schoolarship? or is tertiary education is free in your country?

 

[YeahBee]

well, I think if you are not willing to pay for the dvd, you are not willing to pay for the seminar as well. but that is just my assumption.

Rickson for exemple. never released a book or a dvd and people are not allowed to record or take notes of his seminars.

Well not US prices that is for sure

but you can't equate a seminar with a DVD, I would be willing to pay for a seminar but would not be able to really, regular gear costs alotta money to but I justify it because it keeps me healthy and happy

 

[YeahBee]

So you are a full time student?

How do you eat?

You are on some kind of scholarship? or is tertiary education is free in your country?

Yeah it is funded by the government, you recieve grants and take out loans for living and other expenses. But I don't want to put myself in too much debt(because I am gonna be a teacher and we don't make that much bread) so I have skipped the loans now this last year, work part time to get some more money and have(had) a buffer from the summer where I stood on the factory floor



I eat alotta oatmeal, rice, basic stuff. I don't drink or smoke anymore.

Sports aren't really for profit here, not amateur atleast so we use governmentally funded places to train and so on, comps have no profit interest(a small one for the clubs hosting but no company/individual is making money)

My dog is my luxuary

 

[YeahBee]

You point out my "flawed" argument with out the mere thought that your entire viewpoint is fundamentally flawed itself.

If my viewpoint was flawed then the music and movie industry would be dead today, and yet they grow each year. they tried to pull the same stunt you are back in the 60/70. it wasn't true then and isn't true now.

By saying I am wrong you are saying Jesus was wrong, and even I who am a militant atheist thinks the dude was pretty much on point


As I pointed out before the whole MMA/BJJ scene "owes" alot to the pirates. without it it wouldn't be what it is today

I vaguely knew about MMA since mid 90s because my judo coach had got his hands on a tape and showed us Royce. after porn the UFC was one of the first things I researched when I finally got internet on my own when I moved away for Uni. catched up as much as I could, Hughes first fight with Trigg was the first fight I watched you know as it happened and/or knew of before hand. no UFC on TV at the time, not sold here how were we hurting the UFC by downloading? How? tell me

 

[Jinzumkei]

better customers, better and more practitioners

What does "better" customers mean? Better at BJJ? better at buying BJJ dvds?

Neither of which are necessarily true as I refuted in my previous post.

Prisoner's dilemma
But the gist of it is that: If all the individuals of a collective become better, it doesn't automatically make the group better.

People seem to think that if downloading was amde impossible all of a sudden sales would skyrocket. And I postulate that this is not the case

When the Pirate Bay trial came to verdict in Sweden, downloads dropped for a while for fear of persecution. And yet not no raise in sales

If I downloaded something gerbils or not it wouldn't be instead of paying. this is the nucleus of the whole matter.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I don't think sales will skyrocket. I'm only stating that pirating hurts sales which is not to say that the absence or pirating would be beneficial to sales it just wouldn't "hurt" sales. I've already provided a thorough explanation of why I think piracy hurts sales and still neither you nor anyone else has been able to provide a logical counter-argument to. Your only 2 counter arguments are that

1) You would not have bought the DVD even if you had the money.
2) Spreading the knowledge would will create new customers.

Both arguments I've again refuted:

1) Consuming and sharing the knowledge may actually prevent future customers.
2) Competition diminishes the returns

should I feel bad because I can't and frankly don't wanna support some internet guy's (who is very cool and helpful) trip to Brazil? It is not exactly a charity(which I give to regularly and do non for profit work) worth cause, I almost got more then I can handle now with rent/food, education, my dog who I recently had to get surgery for ileus, wanna help with that? put a dent in my bankaccount I hadn't budgeted in

Ok so now we're closer to the real root of your argument, which is opportunity cost. You don't buy the DVDs because you can consume them freely. You have money, but you have more important thing to spend the money on. Ok I get that. Lots of people share your sentiment.

But you've taken some moral high-ground about it being for the greater good. You've stooped to the same level as the people you're arguing against who claim it's morally wrong to download. Both sides present inferior arguments when you try to boil it down to those terms.

 

[YeahBee]

Better at BJJ?

Elementary

I think that the better a club is the more people it will attract, thus generating more money, which leads to more classes, the more time a coach can spend teaching isntead fo working leads to better grapplers

1) Consuming and sharing the knowledge may actually prevent future customers.
2) Competition diminishes the returns

1: the more into it you get the more stuff you buy, the more you compete, want to attend seminars, maybe even spend more time online discussing this which generates ad revenue for somebody who is more or less part of the scene
2: Maybe for a single instructional maker but not for the scene as a whole, and as I stated before the collective is more important

if one guy had the cure to cancer, but refused to sell it, the most logical and moral course of action would be to take it

You have money, but you have more important thing to spend the money on. Ok I get that. Lots of people share your sentiment.

Heck I have even said I probably wouldn't buy them even if I had the money. it is more then I pay for in training fees for a year with those sets, I probably would spend more money on books tbh

 

[Jinzumkei]

If my viewpoint was flawed then the music and movie industry would be dead today, and yet they grow each year. they tried to pull the same stunt you are back in the 60/70. it wasn't true then and isn't true now.

It's not that your viewpoint is flawed. It's that you don't really have one. Stop using the movie/record industry as an example, it's not the same thing you keep trying to boil it down to terms that are frankly too simple.

As I pointed out before the whole MMA/BJJ scene "owes" alot to the pirates. without it it wouldn't be what it is today

You have no evidence that MMA/BJJ "owes" anything to pirates. It's arguable that it would have grown without piracy.

I vaguely knew about MMA since mid 90s because my judo coach had got his hands on a tape and showed us Royce. after porn the UFC was one of the first things I researched when I finally got internet on my own when I moved away for Uni. catched up as much as I could, Hughes first fight with Trigg was the first fight I watched you know as it happened and/or knew of before hand. no UFC on TV at the time, not sold here how were we hurting the UFC by downloading? How? tell me

See, this is where your argument really falls apart. When you pirated the UFC, the only way you'd have hurt it is if you shared it with others who had the opportunity to buy it but didnt because they got it for free. The product you bought and consumed was the 3 hours of entertainment. The product you are buying when you buy the instructionals is the knowledge contained therein. The problem is that you can still share this knowledge long after you've consumed it, and thus possibly preventing future customers.

 

[OhNoZ]

I've never pirated an instructional dvd in my life but I don't see how looking at myself as a better person for that is helpful in any way. Everyone does something wrong and when you are tempted with something as free, easy, and conveniant as torrents its hard not to. I haven't done it because I have enough to learn and drill with my gyms instruction, however when I do feel the need for one I guarentee I won't be buying it.

The prices are too high and this could be because of illegal downloads. I'm sure these guys have a projection and a goal of what they'll be making from their new set and they most likely weigh in the fact of piracy which makes their product become more expensive so they can make that goal. So wouldn't the pirates do they're no money making asses a favor by stop pirating so the prices may drop? Not a chance because it simply isn't going to happen.

Why stop doing something that has a very very low risk? Tons of Americans smoke pot recreationally even though most states have very strict laws on it. The risk is being caught and the reward is getting high which is only temporary not to mention they are still paying for it. Piracy's risk sounds to me like its being looked down upon because chances are you'll never ever get caught and prosecuted unless if your doing it mainstream. The reward being knowledge that you can review over and over again at no charge.

I'm sure there are ways for the instructors to be able to make some of that money back. Sponsership being one of those. Sure they may lose out on selling you that set but chances are you weren't going to buy it anyways. Now however you have gotten your instructional to thousands of more people that would have never of seen it in the first place, sounds like it just helped the sponser a lot which in turn would pay the individual more money.

Everyone is black and white on this. This is a gray area because it has benefits and reprocussions on both sides. We just spent 25 pages arguing the same points, how about taking that time and look at yourself in the mirror telling yourself how awesome you are (for the high and mightys) or panhandle (for the people less fortunate in finances). Then we'll be a little bit more productivity then telling others how awesome we are and telling others that we are too poor trying to justify a means of taking something that morals would normally say is bad.

 

[YeahBee]

But you've taken some moral high-ground about it being for the greater good. You've stooped to the same level as the people you're arguing against who claim it's morally wrong to download. Both sides present inferior arguments when you try to boil it down to those terms.

but the moral high ground is often correct, why else would it be called moral: which is most often a good thing and high ground which is a superior position

I have already likened myself to Jesus so why not Ghandi to! he broke the law in his actions, even caused financial distress which I am not, but he did it for the greater good and was correct in his actions

I mean I would be a hypocrite if I defended downloading whilst at the same time churrning out DVDrs and charging for them, but I don't

 

[Jinzumkei]

Elementary
I think that the better a club is the more people it will attract, thus generating more money, which leads to more classes, the more time a coach can spend teaching isntead fo working leads to better grapplers

This is a strange argument. You're basically saying the better something is the more people it will attract? Have you considered that not everyone is into BJJ no matter how good the club is? BJJ is a niche market. DVD instructionals are targeted at people who already do BJJ, so I'm not sure why you think this would get more people to join.

1: the more into it you get the more stuff you buy, the more you compete, want to attend seminars, maybe even spend more time online discussing this which generates ad revenue for somebody who is more or less part of the scene
2: Maybe for a single instructional maker but not for the scene as a whole, and as I stated before the collective is more important

1: This thread has already shown that that's not necessarily true. You yourself are pretty into BJJ but don't buy the DVDs. You just choose to put your money elsewhere whether it be seminars or competitions. So you're not adding money to the "scene", you're just re-appropriating it.

2: That's not true either please see Prisoner's dilemma. Which is individual benefit does not necessarily benefit the collective. If the pie is too thin it may prevent future participants, which would actually harm the collective.

if one guy had the cure to cancer, but refused to sell it, the most logical and moral course of action would be to take it
Heck I have even said I probably wouldn't buy them even if I had the money. it is more then I pay for in training fees for a year with those sets, I probably would spend more money on books tbh

Really? You may have just set the bar for dumb analogies with that one. Besides who is refusing to sell you DVDs? No one. You're just refusing to buy them.

 

[YeahBee]

It's not that your viewpoint is flawed. It's that you don't really have one. Stop using the movie/record industry as an example, it's not the same thing you keep trying to boil it down to terms that are frankly too simple.

sheet music, readily available online, guides how to play, yet books are still out there being sold, even thou as you put it

and thus possibly preventing future customers.

You have no evidence that MMA/BJJ "owes" anything to pirates. It's arguable that it would have grown without piracy.

For instance the Swedish UFC fighters got into the sport years and years before it was on TV here, heck 2 of them they got into it when it barely was on TV in the US

See, this is where your argument really falls apart. When you pirated the UFC, the only way you'd have hurt it is if you shared it with others who had the opportunity to buy it but didnt because they got it for free. The product you bought and consumed was the 3 hours of entertainment. The product you are buying when you buy the instructionals is the knowledge contained therein. The problem is that you can still share this knowledge long after you've consumed it, and thus possibly preventing future customers.

Well if my sharing the knowledge suffices that knowledge can't have been much worth to begin with and they deserve to fail

Instructionals covers loads of stuff that are both already available, free or not free


We can't be making exceptions for certain types of media

 

[YeahBee]

This is a strange argument. You're basically saying the better something is the more people it will attract? Have you considered that not everyone is into BJJ no matter how good the club is? BJJ is a niche market. DVD instructionals are targeted at people who already do BJJ, so I'm not sure why you think this would get more people to join.

I think a club with more good people can keep n00bs walking in better then a place full of spazzes

1: This thread has already shown that that's not necessarily true. You yourself are pretty into BJJ but don't buy the DVDs. You just choose to put your money elsewhere whether it be seminars or competitions. So you're not adding money to the "scene", you're just re-appropriating it.

Well i sure as hell ain't getting any money back, easily the most expensive hobby I have ever had, and I hunt (there I get some monetary value back in that I can pack my freezer)

Were the fuck does my money for gis, gloves, rashguards etc etc go if not into the scene?

and gis, patches and seminar fees to the brazilian BB who "presides" over my club as we are part of an association

 

[Jinzumkei]

but the moral high ground is often correct, why else would it be called moral: which is most often a good thing and high ground which is a superior position

Both sides present what they feel are "moral" arguments. Who's to say who's right? Whether or not piracy is a moral argument is ridiculous since you've already stated that you don't buy DVDs because you'd rather spend the money elsewhere. Just stick with that, since it was the only part of your argument that made sense.

I have already likened myself to Jesus so why not Ghandi to! he broke the law in his actions, even caused financial distress which I am not, but he did it for the greater good and was correct in his actions

I mean I would be a hypocrite if I defended downloading whilst at the same time churrning out DVDrs and charging for them, but I don't

Well, I'd argue that your pirating is not benefiting the community at all. You can't really prove that anyway.

 

[sterlinj]

SOOOO what sites are you using? What are the best sites

 

[chirpin4th]

over 5000 views... I guess most people thought this was a "how to".

 

[chirpin4th]

hahaha I couldn't have timed that better... didn't see the above post.