Downloading Instructional Torrents

[Jinzumkei]

sheet music, readily available online, guides how to play, yet books are still out there being sold, even thou as you put it

Lol, somehow you're STILL missing the point. It's not whether or not instructionals are still being sold or not, it's whether or not the pirating hurts the sales of that instructional. I'd argue that it does, your argument is that either it doesn't or even more ludicrous it somehow helps the sale.

For instance the Swedish UFC fighters got into the sport years and years before it was on TV here, heck 2 of them they got into it when it barely was on TV in the US

Ok that means nothing. It's possible they could have gotten into it when it did make it to TV anyway. Or what if they went to vacation in the states and saw it. The notion that mma owes its success to piracy is lunacy.

Well if my sharing the knowledge suffices that knowledge can't have been much worth to begin with and they deserve to fail

Instructionals covers loads of stuff that are both already available, free or not free

We can't be making exceptions for certain types of media

Whether or not you're a good enough teacher to share the knowledge has nothing to do with this argument. In fact that kinda shits on your point about helping the "scene".

The argument is whether or not piracy hurts sales. I believe that it does, and have given several logical points about my theory. My goal is to show that this issue is very complex and to apply moral absolutes to it is a silly excercise.

 

[YeahBee]

Both sides present what they feel are "moral" arguments. Who's to say who's right? Whether or not piracy is a moral argument is ridiculous since you've already stated that you don't buy DVDs because you'd rather spend the money elsewhere. Just stick with that, since it was the only part of your argument that made sense.



Well, I'd argue that your pirating is not benefiting the community at all. You can't really prove that anyway.

The end result proves who is correct, who's morals were correct

they said tape recording was destroying the music industry (and this is still applicable because listening to music spread ideas/knowledge aswell as just the pure entertainment value but you wanted to separate the issue which I don't agree to)

The music lovers said stuff it it doesn't. and the music industry is still here

As long as somebody else isn't making money of somebody else's work there shouldn't be much of a debate

it is easy to prove
I make up a statement and you say it if it is true or false, if true I am correct, if false you are correct

It is better to be happy then sad T/F
It is more enjoyable to watch something good new then something old but good T/F
Art/cultur is good for people T/F

 

[sterlinj]

hahaha I couldn't have timed that better... didn't see the above post.

Very good timing HAHA

 

[Jinzumkei]

I think a club with more good people can keep n00bs walking in better then a place full of spazzes

Uhm I agree, but this has nothing to do with generating more revenue. And surely nothing to do with the effects of piracy on revenue.

Well i sure as hell ain't getting any money back, easily the most expensive hobby I have ever had, and I hunt (there I get some monetary value back in that I can pack my freezer)

Were the fuck does my money for gis, gloves, rashguards etc etc go if not into the scene?

and gis, patches and seminar fees to the brazilian BB who "presides" over my club as we are part of an association

I'm not saying it doesn't go into the "scene". But you're not "adding" overall money by buying 1 product in place of another, you're just placing it somewhere else. If you didn't buy gis, gloves, etc and instead bought the DVDs wouldn't you STILL be contributing money to the sport?

 

[Jinzumkei]

The end result proves who is correct, who's morals were correct

No it doesn't. The outcome of a event can be judged on an individual basis. It's still subjective. What is the end result of pirating?

they said tape recording was destroying the music industry (and this is still applicable because listening to music spread ideas/knowledge aswell as just the pure entertainment value but you wanted to separate the issue which I don't agree to)

The music lovers said stuff it it doesn't. and the music industry is still here

No it's not applicable because you are applying broad market theories to a niche market which doesn't work the same way. Doesn't seem like you understand this so let's put it this way: Who would be hurt more from 1 lost sale: Spielberg or marcelo garcia?

As long as somebody else isn't making money of somebody else's work there shouldn't be much of a debate
it is easy to prove
I make up a statement and you say it if it is true or false, if true I am correct, if false you are correct
It is better to be happy then sad T/F
It is more enjoyable to watch something good new then something old but good T/F
Art/cultur is good for people T/F

Wtf I have no idea where you're trying to go with this. Can you apply these last statments directly to what we're talking about?

 

[Galen Spielman]

Guys, Greenblender hasn't brought up his personal problems for a few hours, can we stop talking about piracy and get back to the reason this thread was started, to hear about his terrible life?

 

[andrehbjj]

I'm going to breathe deeply so I dont offend anyone because many people I know, like, and respect download DVDs. We all have our flaws.

But here are some points to consider:

1) You arent Robin Hood, stealing from the rich and doing something noble with it. Perhaps you arent a scumbag by any means, but please dont paint what you do as somehow beneficial to either the instructor or the sport. Dont kid yourself. I respect Nate's stance on it because he acknowledged its wrongness despite the fact that he pirates from time to time. I think driving while texting is horrible and dangerous, but I can admit that Ive done it before. I certainly dont go online and claim that I'm justified in doing so or that Im improving the world in some way.

2) The people who put these videos out arent rich. They are struggling just as you are. There may be some exceptions, but for the most part many of them have a hard time making ends meet and the DVD is not only a labor of love, but something they hope will also improve their condition.

3) Stealing isnt limited to physical objects. If I hire you to work for me for a week, and then at the end of the week I skip town without paying you, I've stolen from you. Again, if the person who makes the DVD wants you to see it for free, he'll give it to you, upload it to youtube, or provide it to a library for you to check out.

4) If any of you train at a BJJ school, or teach at one, imagine someone coming in and watching every class from the bench at the side of the mat, then going home and training the exact techniques he saw that day. Think about someone doing that the next time you have to pay your monthly dues at the school or pay the rent on the place if you're the instructor. If someone is in a bad way financially, he can discuss it with the instructor to see if he'll give him a break or trade services in some way. I do that where I teach, and I have given out many, many DVDs for free or at a discount to people who needed a break and asked.

5) In many cases, you CAN afford it and it is a steal at $30 (which is what I charge) or even $150 when it's a set. BJJ is one of the best things you can do in life and the benefits by far outweigh the cost. Again, these are tough times and my statement doesnt apply to everyone, but many of the people who download are doing it are hardly doing it on a ten year old computer with a dial up connection.

Lastly, this is a case where the issue is that doing the wrong thing is so easy, so loosely enforced, and so FREE that there is no way to convince many of you that it is wrong. That is a scary thought, unfortunately, because it makes me wonder what other things people would justify if it was easy and didnt have consequences.

Like I said, many friends do this and it doesnt change my opinion about them anymore than I hope my texting while driving doesnt change their opinion of me, but I do hope that one day they'll be honest with themselves about the moral ground they're standing on in this case.

 

[fiftysvn]

I'm going to breathe deeply so I dont offend anyone because many people I know, like, and respect download DVDs. We all have our flaws.

But here are some points to consider:

1) You arent Robin Hood, stealing from the rich and doing something noble with it. Perhaps you arent a scumbag by any means, but please dont paint what you do as somehow beneficial to either the instructor or the sport. Dont kid yourself. I respect Nate's stance on it because he acknowledged its wrongness despite the fact that he pirates from time to time. I think driving while texting is horrible and dangerous, but I can admit that Ive done it before. I certainly dont go online and claim that I'm justified in doing so or that Im improving the world in some way.

2) The people who put these videos out arent rich. They are struggling just as you are. There may be some exceptions, but for the most part many of them have a hard time making ends meet and the DVD is not only a labor of love, but something they hope will also improve their condition.

3) Stealing isnt limited to physical objects. If I hire you to work for me for a week, and then at the end of the week I skip town without paying you, I've stolen from you. Again, if the person who makes the DVD wants you to see it for free, he'll give it to you, upload it to youtube, or provide it to a library for you to check out.

4) If any of you train at a BJJ school, or teach at one, imagine someone coming in and watching every class from the bench at the side of the mat, then going home and training the exact techniques he saw that day. Think about someone doing that the next time you have to pay your monthly dues at the school or pay the rent on the place if you're the instructor. If someone is in a bad way financially, he can discuss it with the instructor to see if he'll give him a break or trade services in some way. I do that where I teach, and I have given out many, many DVDs for free or at a discount to people who needed a break and asked.

5) In many cases, you CAN afford it and it is a steal at $30 (which is what I charge) or even $150 when it's a set. BJJ is one of the best things you can do in life and the benefits by far outweigh the cost. Again, these are tough times and my statement doesnt apply to everyone, but many of the people who download are doing it are hardly doing it on a ten year old computer with a dial up connection.

Lastly, this is a case where the issue is that doing the wrong thing is so easy, so loosely enforced, and so FREE that there is no way to convince many of you that it is wrong. That is a scary thought, unfortunately, because it makes me wonder what other things people would justify if it was easy and didnt have consequences.

Like I said, many friends do this and it doesnt change my opinion about them anymore than I hope my texting while driving doesnt change their opinion of me, but I do hope that one day they'll be honest with themselves about the moral ground they're standing on in this case.

yes. agree with everything said here.

someone will probably follow this up by saying this is actually your fault they're downloading it . . .

 

[Fedorzilla]

I'm going to breathe deeply so I dont offend anyone because many people I know, like, and respect download DVDs. We all have our flaws.

But here are some points to consider:

1) You arent Robin Hood, stealing from the rich and doing something noble with it. Perhaps you arent a scumbag by any means, but please dont paint what you do as somehow beneficial to either the instructor or the sport. Dont kid yourself. I respect Nate's stance on it because he acknowledged its wrongness despite the fact that he pirates from time to time. I think driving while texting is horrible and dangerous, but I can admit that Ive done it before. I certainly dont go online and claim that I'm justified in doing so or that Im improving the world in some way.

2) The people who put these videos out arent rich. They are struggling just as you are. There may be some exceptions, but for the most part many of them have a hard time making ends meet and the DVD is not only a labor of love, but something they hope will also improve their condition.

3) Stealing isnt limited to physical objects. If I hire you to work for me for a week, and then at the end of the week I skip town without paying you, I've stolen from you. Again, if the person who makes the DVD wants you to see it for free, he'll give it to you, upload it to youtube, or provide it to a library for you to check out.

4) If any of you train at a BJJ school, or teach at one, imagine someone coming in and watching every class from the bench at the side of the mat, then going home and training the exact techniques he saw that day. Think about someone doing that the next time you have to pay your monthly dues at the school or pay the rent on the place if you're the instructor. If someone is in a bad way financially, he can discuss it with the instructor to see if he'll give him a break or trade services in some way. I do that where I teach, and I have given out many, many DVDs for free or at a discount to people who needed a break and asked.

5) In many cases, you CAN afford it and it is a steal at $30 (which is what I charge) or even $150 when it's a set. BJJ is one of the best things you can do in life and the benefits by far outweigh the cost. Again, these are tough times and my statement doesnt apply to everyone, but many of the people who download are doing it are hardly doing it on a ten year old computer with a dial up connection.

Lastly, this is a case where the issue is that doing the wrong thing is so easy, so loosely enforced, and so FREE that there is no way to convince many of you that it is wrong. That is a scary thought, unfortunately, because it makes me wonder what other things people would justify if it was easy and didnt have consequences.

Like I said, many friends do this and it doesnt change my opinion about them anymore than I hope my texting while driving doesnt change their opinion of me, but I do hope that one day they'll be honest with themselves about the moral ground they're standing on in this case.

Excellent points. Very well expressed. I don't think a lot of people are willing to convince themselves that they're "helping the community" by downloading them outside the proper channels. Stretch for sure. But, many people will still rely on the fact that, since they're just never going to be willing to pay the price anyhow and aren't passing the material on to others who would, there is no loss to the creator. So, it's a victimless crime like shooting your neighbor's cat/s with a shotgun.

 

[NateTx4112]

Some points I 100% agree with. It tends to be the younger people who aren't out in real life yet EARNING their own way that attempt to justify what it is instead of just admitting what it is. Some people prefer to lie to themselves and rationalize it to themselves to make themselves feel better about doing what they do.

 

[NateTx4112]

And a cheap alternative is mmavault . Com or whatever. The netflix of mma

 

[kesagatame]

Ive downloaded a couple instructionals just because they were literally impossible for me to get in the states in portuguese.

 

[Amiro]

everyones talking about stealing
why are you arguing about if stealing is right or wrong?
filesharing isnt stealing
stealing would be if i moved the actual file to my computer
filesharing is recreating the file
if someone let me see his ferrari and i build my own one thats not stealing
you can make anything ethical or unethical on a forum
bjj costs a lot so do gis gloves rashguards etc
and please dont attack my cyberfunds im so e-poor i roll in a car park and use crisp packets as mats ok

 

[andrehbjj]

everyones talking about stealing
why are you arguing about if stealing is right or wrong?
filesharing isnt stealing
stealing would be if i moved the actual file to my computer
filesharing is recreating the file
if someone let me see his ferrari and i build my own one thats not stealing
you can make anything ethical or unethical on a forum
bjj costs a lot so do gis gloves rashguards etc
and please dont attack my cyberfunds im so e-poor i roll in a car park and use crisp packets as mats ok

Tell yourself whatever you need to in order to consider yourself right about this. We all do it with one thing or another, so Im not pretending Im better in some way, but if someone calls me on my bullshit I can usually own up to it.

 

[Amiro]

Tell yourself whatever you need to in order to consider yourself right about this. We all do it with one thing or another, so Im not pretending Im better in some way, but if someone calls me on my bullshit I can usually own up to it.

my point was that you can make anything sound ethical on a forum
thats why i said 'you can make anything sound ethical or unethical on a forum'
anyone could just as easily turn around and say it in another way that makes you sound like pure evil.

i think its more complicated than that
a lot of people that pirate stuff would never have paid for it even if it was cheap and affordable.
but mixed in with those people are the few that download pirate copies and then sell dvds or whatever
they are the ones ripping off the industries, because they took a customer that was willing to pay money for it
if there was no piracy in the world would you have paid for it? a mediocre movie on dvd you wouldnt even go to the cinema for? that was on tv the other day anyway? really? im stealing from hollywood?
on instructional dvds, i try to support my club as much as i can which isnt a lot but thats the main place my money goes. i dont picture myself buying instructionals id rather get an instructional live and sparring by going to class. but i guess there are lots of self-trained people or people that are just into learning that way that do take away from sales. lets just be happy we cant download a gi.

i dont know much about it but i think the more bjj grows the more it will evolve like everything i think. even as a sport there will be a point where everything just gets pimped out like when ufc changed. dana had hair...

i dont think dvd piracy is the 20 page epidemic its cracked up to be. if you can afford it buy it. its not gonna end bjj if you dont.

 

[Jinzumkei]

my point was that you can make anything sound ethical on a forum
thats why i said 'you can make anything sound ethical or unethical on a forum'
anyone could just as easily turn around and say it in another way that makes you sound like pure evil.

i think its more complicated than that
a lot of people that pirate stuff would never have paid for it even if it was cheap and affordable.
but mixed in with those people are the few that download pirate copies and then sell dvds or whatever
they are the ones ripping off the industries, because they took a customer that was willing to pay money for it
if there was no piracy in the world would you have paid for it? a mediocre movie on dvd you wouldnt even go to the cinema for? that was on tv the other day anyway? really? im stealing from hollywood?
on instructional dvds, i try to support my club as much as i can which isnt a lot but thats the main place my money goes. i dont picture myself buying instructionals id rather get an instructional live and sparring by going to class. but i guess there are lots of self-trained people or people that are just into learning that way that do take away from sales. lets just be happy we cant download a gi.

i dont know much about it but i think the more bjj grows the more it will evolve like everything i think. even as a sport there will be a point where everything just gets pimped out like when ufc changed. dana had hair...

i dont think dvd piracy is the 20 page epidemic its cracked up to be. if you can afford it buy it. its not gonna end bjj if you dont.

Seriously, how many times does this have to be explained. Piracy is about USAGE not about stealing. You are CONSUMING something you didn't pay for.

It has nothing to do with whether or not you WOULD have bought the DVD, it's the fact that you may SHARE it and allow other people to CONSUME without paying for it. This is especially easy with instructionals because the end user may never even see the original product to be able to consume it.

Really why is this so hard to understand?

 

[andrehbjj]

Seriously, how many times does this have to be explained. Piracy is about USAGE not about stealing. You are CONSUMING something you didn't pay for.

It has nothing to do with whether or not you WOULD have bought the DVD, it's the fact that you may SHARE it and allow other people to CONSUME without paying for it. This is especially easy with instructionals because the end user may never even see the original product to be able to consume it.

Really why is this so hard to understand?

Well said.

I think this is particularly painful for those of us who were so hungry for information when there simply was none available. Ten years ago we were watching grainy competition footage from Brazil because it was the only source of information aside from the few companies who actually made videos for sale (and they sold like crazy).

 

[ijustwannasurf]

^^^^^^^
I bought your DVD.

 

[Fedorzilla]

You know what, fuck this. Somebody just post the links to a bunch of torrents so that we can force them to shut down this damn thread.

 

[bagelgod]

Piracy is about USAGE not about stealing. You are CONSUMING something you didn't pay for.

Wrong. The very DEFINITION of piracy is copyright infringement. Making copies without a license. THAT'S WHAT IT IS. IT ISN'T ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE THAT'S THE DEFINITION!!!!!!!!

It has nothing to do with whether or not you WOULD have bought the DVD,

Then why do people keep saying I'm stealing money from the guy if I would never in one billion years buy his product? I downloaded a ninja torrent just to have a good laugh and play a drinking game whenever they say the word "deadly". In real life, I'd never fucking buy that in 12 million years. Tell me, did I steal money from this guy by making a copy?

it's the fact that you may SHARE it and allow other people to CONSUME without paying for it.

Also wrong; sharing it makes copies. Hence, copyright infringement.

Really why is this so hard to understand?

Because no one understands copyright law?

Disclaimer: I'm not saying copyright infringement is ethical or not ethical. I'm just fucking tired of seeing people not know what they're talking about.