Downloading Instructional Torrents

[Calibur]

I guess I will chime in.

I am a single man with a good job and dependants in the early 30's. In other words I have a lot of disposable income.

But, I live in a foreign country, don't have (don't believe in ) a credit card, and dont have access to much English instruction. I download stuff that I come across. I also go to BJJ tournaments in my area and wait for random technique DVDs to be sold. I7ll pay whatever for them, because I don't crave instructionals often, but the truth is I dont like buying things online. If I see something, I hold it in my hands, take it to the register and pay for it or come back when I can afford too. I than watch it on my ipod during my long ass commute to and from work/training.

Now, if I buy a DVD on line I have to go to the site, send my information, wait the few days depending on how much I pay for shipping, rip it, convert it, put it on my ipod. Ooooor, I could probably find the DVD I want for less time than it would take for me to check my email and get it in a few hours prime to go into my ipod for viewing.

It's not a morality thing. It's not a money thing. It's a convenience thing. I'm not a big believer in (this would take waaaaay too long to explain ) traditional right and wrong, so this doesn't bother me so much. I'm not gonna try to justify piracy. But, I can and I do, but it's not because of money. Piracy just means I can get what I want faster. I actually used to download stuff, and when the stuff was actually in J-stores I would actually buy (maybe out of guilt) the hardcopies of DVDs that I already pirated.

guess what. I through all the hard copies away. I keep everything digitally anyway and playing the DVDs were slower and making clutter.

Yeah, I really would just walk up and hand hundred dollar bills to random BJJ teachers for the stuff I pirated in the past, simply because I'm greatful for the stuff they put out, but even than, it's really not enough. The distributers are taking even more risk (from my limited knowledge) producing and shipping these things and I feel just as bad for them as I do for the instructors who are losing potential profit.

Anyway, just wanted to know if there was anyone who did this out of economics of time and not economics of money.

 

[nefti]

Simply the more knowledge the better, how can this be hard to fathom?

take Harvard for instance a bastion of knowledge right? 50 grand a year? (I dunno just guessing)

Now like most Universities they have distance students aswell, that follow lectures via streaming online, and yet anybody can access those lectures free of charge, because spreading knowledge is a good thing. even those who can't afford it can benefit from it, for a personal benefit or perhaps a kid who goes to community college which isn't as good as Harvard

in the end EVERYBODY benefits from people being more knowledgeable or just being more entertained

You people gotta snap out of this notion that it is an either or question, it is not buying or downloading, it is buying AND downloading or downloading when you can't buy. This attitude about work harder to get what you want is such a spoiled brat attitude and I'd wager that most of those people have never had a real honest manual job

I have given numerous examples before but you are set in your way, downloading doesn't hurt. the spread of knowledge is a good thing

The long distance lectures are only a part of the educational process, the professors who teach at those lectures are paid by revenue the school generates. You can claim "it's the knowlage" argument all you want but in the long run, the more people pirate the less likely it is for the big guys in grappling to come out with instructionals.

 

[nefti]

Bottom line is that if you like watching instructionals then buy cus sooner or later these guys will say "fuck it. Why produce a dvd that can be ripped easily when i can have my one site with 3 min clips that will take hours and hours to rip off the net and organize?"

 

[redaxe]

It's not really about right vs. wrong because in real life nobody cares about that. They THINK they care about it, but their actions tell otherwise.

It's about risk vs. reward.

Downloading copyrighted media is easy, fast, and carries a low risk of getting caught and punished.

The reward is great--you get to enjoy something for free that you would normally have to spend a lot of money for.

That's why people do it, and they're not going to stop until the risk/reward balance changes significantly to make piracy not "worth it" anymore.

I stopped downloading pirated TV shows if they're on iTunes. iTunes is cheap ($1.99 per episode for SD, $2.99 for HD with discounts if you get a "season pass"), gives you an extremely fast download, and the video files are of higher and more reliable quality. It eliminates the hassle of searching online for a torrent. And the file types are compatible with my iPod so I can watch them on the bus or the airplane or whatever. Totally worth it.

If only Ryan Hall's videos were on iTunes...

 

[YeahBee]

Bottom line is that if you like watching instructionals then buy cus sooner or later these guys will say "fuck it. Why produce a dvd that can be ripped easily when i can have my one site with 3 min clips that will take hours and hours to rip off the net and organize?"

And that wouldn't be a problem

I have hundreds of tapes, cd's, lp's, some of it bought, some downloaded but there is streaming now and it is more convenient. People will move into this with movie/TV to

Tape recording didn't kill the LP, downloading isn't going to either

even before everybody had internet we were trading burned CDs with hundreds of mp3, record industry survived. everybody taped movies of the TV, the movie industry survived

If anything people buy MORE now. DVD boxes with whole seasons of TV shows sell like crazy. Nobody bought VHS sets of tv-shows. they would be huge sets, like 3 episodes per tape. each season would take up one shelf on your bookshelf

 

[YeahBee]

The long distance lectures are only a part of the educational process, the professors who teach at those lectures are paid by revenue the school generates. You can claim "it's the knowlage" argument all you want but in the long run, the more people pirate the less likely it is for the big guys in grappling to come out with instructionals.

And the professors at a BJJ club are paid by revenue the club generates thru normal classes and seminars

imagine that

 

[thegreenblender]

Wait... what? Isn't that the complete opposite of a "spoiled brat attitude"? I was always under the impression that "spoiled brats" expected more for doing less.

What he means to say, is that often those with the most money to throw around, and the luxury of shoving, "You should pay for everything you have" in other peoples faces, often didn't accumulate their wealth by the sweat of their own brow. But nonetheless, it takes a lot of things to fall into place to be successful, although the ones who have the most success love to say that, "It's all hard work", because it makes everyone around them seem lazy and inferior...but I'm here to say that plenty of people work hard and see fuck-all improvement in their life, because the cards just aren't going their way. This is a fact that many self-righteous people who have been more fortunate than others have a hard time understanding...and yes, fortune takes many forms. A good upbringing, good friends, the right opportunities,etc. Just because you were born in a ghetto and found success, it doesn't mean your road was harder than someone in suburbia who may have lived in a hell that happened to be in a nicer house. I wish some of you bastards had my goddamn parents. I'd go back in time and be raised in a rat-infested hole, eating sawdust sandwiches, rather than living with those psychos. Right after I left my parents house I lived in a room no bigger than a mid-sized closet for a year and some weeks all I ate was pancake mix. But it was like heaven on earth compared to living with the Bates family.

Yah, I rant. But everytime I come back to this thread I'm disgusted with people who can't fathom that maybe, just maybe, other people have worked just as hard as them and come up short. And maybe, just maybe, they could lay off on their self-righteous "you should never download off the internet" bullshit.

 

[gotobread]

Uh... whoah. Okay.

 

[thegreenblender]

And the professors at a BJJ club are paid by revenue the club generates thru normal classes and seminars

imagine that

Seriously, if you are a BJJ instructor who can't pay the bills because of DVD piracy, you have more serious problems than piracy. If you aren't putting enough asses in your school to handily support you, you probably aren't big enough or good enough to warrant putting out a DVD anyway. But don't let that stop people from claiming that we are putting these guys out on the streets with our downloading, though most of us could not afford and would not pay for the content anyways.

 

[YeahBee]

It's not really about right vs. wrong because in real life nobody cares about that. They THINK they care about it, but their actions tell otherwise.

It's about risk vs. reward.

Downloading copyrighted media is easy, fast, and carries a low risk of getting caught and punished.

The reward is great--you get to enjoy something for free that you would normally have to spend a lot of money for.

That's why people do it, and they're not going to stop until the risk/reward balance changes significantly to make piracy not "worth it" anymore.

I stopped downloading pirated TV shows if they're on iTunes. iTunes is cheap ($1.99 per episode for SD, $2.99 for HD with discounts if you get a "season pass"), gives you an extremely fast download, and the video files are of higher and more reliable quality. It eliminates the hassle of searching online for a torrent. And the file types are compatible with my iPod so I can watch them on the bus or the airplane or whatever. Totally worth it.

If only Ryan Hall's videos were on iTunes...

In your scenario seems to me like it wasn't the risk that got you but the rewards by paying

You are still dancing to the tune of the ignorant people when you say still like this

The reward is great--you get to enjoy something for free that you would normally have to spend a lot of money for.

Normally you wouldn't have the money to spend in the first place

you download more then you could possibly ever buy

 

[YeahBee]

Wait... what? Isn't that the complete opposite of a "spoiled brat attitude"? I was always under the impression that "spoiled brats" expected more for doing less.

I fail to see how working harder (and learning to save your money) is a spoiled brat attitude.

What does an honest manual job entail?

Puulize

It is the same Marie Antionette "why don't they eat cookies instead" attitude

You hear it all the time from spoiled brat trust fund babies and politicians, who shout the loudest about cutting back welfare and unemployment benefits? THE ALREADY RICH

It surfaces when prices of BJJ comes up

 

[thegreenblender]

Hey guys, I downloaded Gracie Combatives last night. I admit it. Now the Gracies will go broke, and surely I would have shelled out a hundred dollars or so if it wasn't available online. Because I really had that money to blow on instructionals. But despite it being readily available, and having NO intention of ever purchasing it, I have caused irreparable damage to the Gracies and society by consuming knowledge only people who have more money than me should be privy to. Next time I see that free download link, I'll tell myself, "I haven't earned that. I have no right to view it. Only people with money have the right to enjoy good instruction. And oh, the damage I will do if I shall. I shall retreat to the corner and work on my shadow puppets for the evening."

 

[gotobread]

You two certainly have a flair for the dramatic -- I'll give you that much.

Signed,
Pirate for life

 

[Bruce Calavera]

Guys, stealing is wrong.

Do people do it? YES

Do I do it? Yes

Here's something alot of people haven't grasped. Piracy is an idea expressed by pirates, and pirates steal things.

Lie to yourself about how you spreading someone else's long hard developed, costly produced info is okay. That's fine whatever. But it's still stealing. If you really think downloading DVDs is okay and that you're morally sound next time you download one also send that person an email explaining your situation and how you feel they're in the wrong for wanting money for their product. I'm sure they'll understand. I mean, you're a good guy right? Also include your name, social, address etc so they can come hang out with you. Making friends is that easy.

And yeah sure if you Pirate a Renzo Gracie DVD he's probably not going to have a sig difference in his income. Pirate a lesser known person who's also providing quality info who made the DVD as a much needed source of income and you are effecting that person's life.

I'm no angel, but I'm also not trying to convince anyone I am.

 

[nefti]

And the professors at a BJJ club are paid by revenue the club generates thru normal classes and seminars

imagine that

Also if they choose to put out a dvd, they are paid from that also. Are you saying that normal classes and seminars are the only way an instructor should be paid? If you take money away from someone then it's taking away money. At least be honest with yourself and don't come up with some bullshit philosophical excuse.

 

[Daihlo]

There are those who insist that torrents do not effect producers and instructors as 'the people who use them wouldnt buy anyway', and some who say that it doesnt effect sales anyway..

I dont know about the first one, but I can tell you that it does effect sales in a very negative way.

I produce instructional videos, DVDs, Downloads, subscription viewing and iapps...

Ive seen videos released and within the first 10 units sold on one occasion, hit the torrent sites. Then over 700 downloads in the first day of release... compared to very few actual purchases.

Its not a quality thing either, as they always get brilliant reviews on the torrent sites, and those who are 'caring' enough to upload them, get piled high with praise!


Its also a myth that the instructors are loaded and dont need the income.
They wouldnt bother doing them if they were.

Not to mention the producers who pay thousands to keep content going on all formats and worldwide...

Ever thought how much it costs to film, produce, stock and distribute a DVD on NTSC and PAL and then distribute worldwide?... its thousands just to get started.

Ive seen a direct drop in sales that matches direct rise in torrent downloads all the time. The two are related.


I do think there will be people who will always use torrent though, with a number of reasons mixed maybe with excuses for some.



So, to cater for those who genuinely cannot afford the purchase quality content, I will give some away for free

Sign up to CageFilm.com - Martial Arts Instruction Online and pm me your user name. I will give you a free video.

If you like it and can afford it, feel free to send me $10! or buy another from the site. They all cost just $10... (

 

[QueensBJJ]

Wow this thread really sheds some light on how much people suck LOL.

 

[Jinzumkei]

but the positive ramifications far outweight those negative

This is arguable and I'm sure most publishers and people who make the instructionals would disagree.

there will always be people who want the "real" packaged product, just like the record industry maybe they have got to offer something more like springsteen does now with his new album/box, a three piece book, record, dvd thing.

the record industry isn't dead. the movie industry isn't dead. far from it

they would take the risk because just like a record was originally intended it can be viewed as a promotional tool. just like the real purpose of a band is to play actual gigs a coaching grapplers real purpose is to teach IRL via camps/seminars. having his work spread before is a good thing regardless if people paid for it or not.

Agreed to a degree but movie/record industry analogy doesnt really apply here because you're not taking into consideration an analysis of market risk. BJJ instructionals are a far higher risk than movies or records because the target market is very niche, hence it is far more expensive to produce these instead of movies/records because of the opportunity cost. So pirating these hurt a lot more than pirating a movie.

Your only argument is that the more this spreads the better. And I agree but you dont really have any evidence that pirating instructionals spreads the knowledge more than a traditional distribution method, only a theory. I agree its natural to come to that conclusion but it doesnt take into consideration that even via pirating these instructionals are not as widely available because the market is so niche. In fact, it may even be better to do them through traditional means (I also have no proof of this either).

I think the real point of my post is that too many people are looking at this issue as straight black/white when there's actually a lot of gray area. The problem is that many people are try to apply moral absolutes to a problem that is complex both morally and legally.

 

[Jinzumkei]

Non-issue, because I wouldn't have bought them anyway. Thus I'm not taking any money from him, because he wasn't going to get any to begin with.

I've already explain this but I will again because you missed it. You may or may not have taken money from him you can't be sure because you have already consumed the knowledge on the DVDs. The problem is what you've stated in previous posts which it's "made the grappling community better" which leads me to believe that you've shared the knowledge with others allowing them to also consume it without paying for it. Some of those people may have bought the DVDs but now no longer need to. That's really what piracy is about: distribution.

Marcelo's DVD sets are probably the most pirated DVD set on the interwebs. Did that stop him from making the brilliant MGinaction website? Hell, that website is 100x better than instructionals. Getting to see the moves in live sparring? Related webs of techniques? Feedback from people training with him/the same moves? A FREE WEEK OF TRAINING WITH THE MAN HIMSELF?!?!?!?!?!

Well since we're speaking in hypotheticals, how do you know that pirating didn't prevent him from making a website 1000x better? This point is near here nor there really. I think you were just being silly.

Arguably, pirating that led to this was a fucking brilliant move!

I don't really understand this argument as you dont have any proof of this and to make such a claim the burden of proof would be on you.

Friend, for whatever reason, people already pirate aikido.

Ultimately though it doesn't matter, because not only am I becoming a better grappler/making grappling community better, my piracy has led to better products! I'm 2x as good, and this means even LESS lonely masturbating in the dark (because I don't torrent porn, that's just wrong guys, those ladies need the money, and if you take the bread from their mouth you know what else is going to go in there instead)!

Yeah that first part was a joke.

My only real point is similar to my above post that this issue is complex. And if you try to put it in terms of right/wrong, you're being very nearsighted no matter what side you land on.

 

[Jinzumkei]

Hey guys, I downloaded Gracie Combatives last night. I admit it. Now the Gracies will go broke, and surely I would have shelled out a hundred dollars or so if it wasn't available online. Because I really had that money to blow on instructionals. But despite it being readily available, and having NO intention of ever purchasing it, I have caused irreparable damage to the Gracies and society by consuming knowledge only people who have more money than me should be privy to. Next time I see that free download link, I'll tell myself, "I haven't earned that. I have no right to view it. Only people with money have the right to enjoy good instruction. And oh, the damage I will do if I shall. I shall retreat to the corner and work on my shadow puppets for the evening."

I'm sorry you've had such a shitty life that you are broke. Really I am. And If I have to pay an extra $10 for the DVDs to cover your share I'm cool with that, that's the cost of doing business. But please stop with attitude. That's more or less why people started on you. Why they chose a BJJ forum to spew the ridiculous moral high-ground bullshit is beyond me, but you're excercise in self-entitlement surely is cause for some e-ridicule.

How about next time you just say a thanks to all the people who covered your share?