Downloading Instructional Torrents

[thegreenblender]

I am honestly waiting for the industry to get its mind out of the 1970s and start protecting its content. People are creative, I'm very sure they can come up with a way to distribute digital content without wantonly exposing themselves to piracy.

If it's readily available and there is little consequence, people will take it. I think this has been proven. The only way to end the piracy and all the stupid debates is to come up with a method to secure the data that isn't a flipping joke. It's like getting up in arms that people are blazing down roads at 80 mph when the speed limit is 30....but there are no traffic cops in sight. Since when has anything ever been accomplished in all of the world simply by counting on people to "do the right thing." It seriously boggles my mind that years after the birth of digital piracy, the main line of defense is still "scaring" people, and taking down links that will be back up in nanoseconds. I couldn't imagine that if a restaurant put pies to cool by the window and they kept getting taken, they would spend years putting up signs that say, "you better not take the pies!" It honestly blows my mind.

 

[StoicDude]

Kind of surprising that this is still going on.

I would say that the best deal for the instructors and people interested in their videos is the way Marcelo Garcia has gone with MGinAction.

You get all the videos, the instructor gets pretty much all the money. It is hard to copy, at least for me, since I have no clue how to go about transferring those files on DVD and the killer deal, for me, is that with the introductory registration, I received a free week of training at Marcelo's school.

Since I go to NYC once a year, it works out perfectly, because I don't have to pay to train while there.

That, to me, is the perfect scenario. Everybody wins!

 

[StoicDude]

I am honestly waiting for the industry to get its mind out of the 1970s and start protecting its content. People are creative, I'm very sure they can come up with a way to distribute digital content without wantonly exposing themselves to piracy.

If it's readily available and there is little consequence, people will take it. I think this has been proven. The only way to end the piracy and all the stupid debates is to come up with a method to secure the data that isn't a flipping joke. It's like getting up in arms that people are blazing down roads at 80 mph when the speed limit is 30....but there are no traffic cops in sight. Since when has anything ever been accomplished in all of the world simply by counting on people to "do the right thing." It seriously boggles my mind that years after the birth of digital piracy, the main line of defense is still "scaring" people, and taking down links that will be back up in nanoseconds. I couldn't imagine that if a restaurant put pies to cool by the window and they kept getting taken, they would spend years putting up signs that say, "you better not take the pies!" It honestly blows my mind.

Sooooooo, you would murder and rape if you could get away with it?
Great to know what type of person you are.

 

[thegreenblender]

Kind of surprising that this is still going on.

I would say that the best deal for the instructors and people interested in their videos is the way Marcelo Garcia has gone with MGinAction.

You get all the videos, the instructor gets pretty much all the money. It is hard to copy, at least for me, since I have no clue how to go about transferring those files on DVD and the killer deal, for me, is that with the introductory registration, I received a free week of training at Marcelo's school.

Since I go to NYC once a year, it works out perfectly, because I don't have to pay to train while there.

That, to me, is the perfect scenario. Everybody wins!

This is what I'm talking about. For two seconds, we should stop the moral debate, and ask ourselves, how did people get so stupid that they can't find a creative way to ensure a profit from their digital content? Sure, we can invent blu-ray players and virtual reality and god knows what else, but our only protection from piracy is to try to convert everyone to Christianity and hope they will see the light.

 

[thegreenblender]

Sooooooo, you would murder and rape if you could get away with it?
Great to know what type of person you are.

Well, I was with you. But now I see you are going in a completely different direction, involving taking things entirely out of context.

 

[StoicDude]

Well, I was with you. But now I see you are going in a completely different direction, involving taking things entirely out of context.

hehe/ :icon_twis Sorry dude. I still stand by my first post. Second one was just a bit of a ball buster.

In no way am I equating rape and murder to copying dvds.

The only thing I was going by is that you said that "It's like getting up in arms that people are blazing down roads at 80 mph when the speed limit is 30....but there are no traffic cops in sight. Since when has anything ever been accomplished in all of the world simply by counting on people to "do the right thing."

So that is why I had to use that logic. Just an early morning joke. :icon_cry2

 

[Dubious Dom]

wow, did this thread ever hop the tracks into legal discussion.

The DVDs are too expensive for me to buy, so I pirate them. Why spend nearly $200 per DVD set, when I can buy food and get them all for free with virtually no negative repercussion.

Whether its wrong or not, I feel is subjective.

 

[Bruce Calavera]

This is what I'm talking about. For two seconds, we should stop the moral debate, and ask ourselves, how did people get so stupid that they can't find a creative way to ensure a profit from their digital content? Sure, we can invent blu-ray players and virtual reality and god knows what else, but our only protection from piracy is to try to convert everyone to Christianity and hope they will see the light.

In all fairness most other religions are against stealing too lol.

 

[YeahBee]

Sure, in theory. But if publishers find that they're no longer making money from it, why would they take the risk to publish it?

I'm all for spreading knowledge via piracy but please don't act as if this doesnt have negative ramifications.

but the positive ramifications far outweight those negative

there will always be people who want the "real" packaged product, just like the record industry maybe they have got to offer something more like springsteen does now with his new album/box, a three piece book, record, dvd thing.

the record industry isn't dead. the movie industry isn't dead. far from it

they would take the risk because just like a record was originally intended it can be viewed as a promotional tool. just like the real purpose of a band is to play actual gigs a coaching grapplers real purpose is to teach IRL via camps/seminars. having his work spread before is a good thing regardless if people paid for it or not.

 

[YeahBee]

This is what I'm talking about. For two seconds, we should stop the moral debate, and ask ourselves, how did people get so stupid that they can't find a creative way to ensure a profit from their digital content? Sure, we can invent blu-ray players and virtual reality and god knows what else, but our only protection from piracy is to try to convert everyone to Christianity and hope they will see the light.

People still played rock and roll music in USSR. a company can never be as creative as the big masses

haven't you seen what has happened with the wikileaks supporters in these last few days?

 

[YeahBee]

I will disagree with you on this every time. Societies were created to serve the individual. That's why we joined them back in prehistory times. We did so because the individual gained from the society, and in turn, gave back to the society.

But man is not meant to be in servitude to the society. The collective is only important because it serves the individual.

The sum is greater then its parts, we see this is sports over and over again,

I rather have a society were we serve together then yours were the few have servants

 

[thegreenblender]

People still played rock and roll music in USSR. a company can never be as creative as the big masses

haven't you seen what has happened with the wikileaks supporters in these last few days?

I hear you. But the fact is, outside of jiu-jitsu, sometimes the only money someone gets for their content is for the content itself. Take software, for instance. No one is going to be happy to take a hit on their new video game because the exposure will get them more fans at their NerdCraft convention. They need people to buy the damn game. And can it be locked down? Yes, it can. Look at Apple. The jailbreaks are getting harder and harder to do, as the hardware and firmware continues to be updated. Furthermore, you'll see plenty of people on forums throwing their hands up and saying "fuck it" to piracy, because it's too hard, their hacked phone/ipod doesn't function properly, and when applications are often just a couple bucks anyways, it makes it hard to justify the headache. Meanwhile, business is booming for Apple, while less progressive companies who don't lock down their content are getting eaten up. XBOX, same thing. Fewer and fewer people care to mod their xboxes because they know it screws them out of LIVE, and they aren't willing to sacrifice that. And if the folks at Microsoft really wanted to be hardasses, they could just modify the hardware so you needed some kind of online security check every time you fire up your machine, so you couldn't play at all with a modded box. While we are still transitioning into the digital age, people might be able to argue about wanting offline play, but when 95% of houses become internet capable, companies will be able to check/verify anything they please.

Now, there will always be freeware. There will always be alternatives. But there will come a day when any moron won't be able to log on and download free commercial product. There will always be hackers and such who could pull off some piracy, but the stupidly easy methods of piracy will become obsolete.

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

The sum is greater then its parts, we see this is sports over and over again,

I rather have a society were we serve together then yours were the few have servants

You're missing my point. For the society to serve individuals best, individuals must serve society, sure.

But when society seeks to subsume individuality (think of the book 1984), then there is a problem.

 

[YeahBee]

I hear you. But the fact is, outside of jiu-jitsu, sometimes the only money someone gets for their content is for the content itself. Take software, for instance. No one is going to be happy to take a hit on their new video game because the exposure will get them more fans at their NerdCraft convention. They need people to buy the damn game. And can it be locked down? Yes, it can. Look at Apple. The jailbreaks are getting harder and harder to do, as the hardware and firmware continues to be updated. Furthermore, you'll see plenty of people on forums throwing their hands up and saying "fuck it" to piracy, because it's too hard, their hacked phone/ipod doesn't function properly, and when applications are often just a couple bucks anyways, it makes it hard to justify the headache. Meanwhile, business is booming for Apple, while less progressive companies who don't lock down their content are getting eaten up. XBOX, same thing. Fewer and fewer people care to mod their xboxes because they know it screws them out of LIVE, and they aren't willing to sacrifice that. And if the folks at Microsoft really wanted to be hardasses, they could just modify the hardware so you needed some kind of online security check every time you fire up your machine, so you couldn't play at all with a modded box. While we are still transitioning into the digital age, people might be able to argue about wanting offline play, but when 95% of houses become internet capable, companies will be able to check/verify anything they please.

Now, there will always be freeware. There will always be alternatives. But there will come a day when any moron won't be able to log on and download free commercial product. There will always be hackers and such who could pull off some piracy, but the stupidly easy methods of piracy will become obsolete.

but this whole spiel is still working under the assumption that people download instead of paying and that is not the case

It is just that downloading has led to a bigger consumption.

For TV for example people still download but most people with internet has got TV to. People don't want to be tied down to a certain timeslot, they wanna watch several episodes in consecutive order or a number of reasons. I have UFC on basic cable but I don't wanna stay up until 4 in the morning

Movies/TV are easily available and are downloaded in huge numbers, but DVD movies and boxes sell like crazy and there are record blockbuster movies time and time again. My hometown has had a small festival grow to the biggest in Sweden, the music industry is doing fine to

Just like taperecording didn't kill the LP downloading won't kill anything now either

more elaborate protections will only serve as a challenge. The scene releases all kinds of shit, it is "prestige" to them

there are movies you could never get to see in cinemas or even released for your region

 

[YeahBee]

You're missing my point. For the society to serve individuals best, individuals must serve society, sure.

But when society seeks to subsume individuality (think of the book 1984), then there is a problem.

there is a difference, they don't serve society and each other, they serve Big Brother, not greater good but his good

Don't be one of those guys that bemoan Obama as a socialist and thinks it is an insult

 

[bagelgod]

Just ask yourself how you would like to be treated.

This is the best point here. I only own 3 actual DVDs, and each person outlines the criteria under which I myself would sell DVDs.

Reilly Bodycomb's set:
This guy puts hours of free stuff on youtube, answers questions in internet forums, and chatted with me on facebook the night before a tournament on technique planning and what not. He didn't do it for a 300$. He did it for free. His DVD was priced VERY cheap, to boot. 30$ is reasonable, and you know what? I've learned more from his DVDs than any other DVD I've ever seen.

Bjorn Friedrich's Position Brabo:
This is another similar case. This guy had FORTY MINUTES worth of youtube instruction on the brabo choke. Everyone wanted him to update his youtube stuff with a DVD (also because watching stuff on youtube gets tiring). Once again, it was SUPER cheap. Also his accent is ADORABLE.

Andreh's Closed Guard Sweeps:
Hell, I don't even like the Gi that much, but I still bought this. Why? Cheap, and the guy was sending it to people who couldn't afford it. He's trying to help the grappling community rather than make a buck. Quite frankly, I don't give a shit if you're poor if you're just after my cash. I'm poor too. Let's eat shoes together. However, if you genuinely give a damn about the grappling community, if you go out of your way to help others out, by posting a bunch of free stuff on youtube, or sending your DVD out for free (!!!), then you deserve my money. I mean, it helps that these three are cheap, but I think that's again because the people who made them give a damn.

That's just one lonely scallywags opinion.

Here's how they get harmed.

1. Intellectual property dilution. After a while, the information becomes public knowledge if it gets into too many hands. When that happens, even people that would buy it don't need to, because it's already too diluted.

....What? This sounds more like a patent defense of obviousness than a copyright defense. Assuming you're arguing from a non legal standpoint, it still doesn't make a lot of sense. Who are you going to want to learn tornado guard from; the fat whitebelt who downloads torrents, or Cyborg? How many people know X-guard, but still sign up to MGinaction/Marcelo's Books/Dvd's/Seminars? It's a nice idea, but especially in such a skill oriented sport as BJJ, it's a silly issue.

3. Failure to protect their trademark/copyright. If they take no action, meaning trying to enforce the laws, reporting violations, etc. they literally lose the right after a time because their enforcement appears selective, which it isn't supposed to be.

This is just simply not true. For most, the next few paragraphs are going to be very boring.

You're either talking abandonment or estoppel.

To establish abandonment, an infringer must demonstrate: (1) an intent by the copyright holder to surrender rights in its work; and (2) an overt act evidencing that intent. (National Comics Publications, Inc. v. Fawcett Publications, Inc., 191 F.2d 594, 598 (2d Cir. 1951); Schatt v. Curtis Management Group. Inc., 764 F. Supp. 902, 907 (S.D.N.Y. 1991)). Even if the publisher's of these pirated materials did not expend substantial resources in enforcing its copyrights, the second factor is usually super easy to prove. The presence of a copyright notice, (as exists in all of the DVD's I've ever watched), has been held to be evidence of an intent not to abandon one's copyrights. See Marvin Worth Prods, v. Superior Films Corp., 319 F. Supp. 1269, 1273 (S.D.N.Y. 1970); Paramount Pictures Corporation v. Carol Publishing Group.

Recognizing the deficiencies in a traditional abandonment defense, one may attempt to use the doctrine of limited abandonment. Most courts will agree with Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Inc. v. Showcase Atlanta Cooperative Productions, Inc., where the court stated "no pertinent authority has been cited for the proposition [of limited abandonment] and the Court knows of none. Further, the evidence before the Court falls far short of that required to show that Plaintiffs have abandoned their copyrights. Even if the other [allegedly infringing works] cited by defendants are not [fair use], the fact that an occasional infringement slips through a copyright holder's surveillance not is insufficient to establish the intent required to find abandonment." 217 U.S.P.Q. (BNA) 857, 858 (N.D. Ga. 1981). Accordingly, this abandonment defense is ineffectual.

Of course, by your above point you may mean estoppel rather than abandonment. Failure to commence litigation against other potentially infringing acts estops them from bringing this action. Extending the doctrine of estoppel so that a defendant may rely on a plaintiff's conduct toward another party is both unsupported by law and pernicious as a matter of policy.

The elements of estoppel in a copyright case are: (1) the plaintiff knew about defendant's wrongful conduct; (2) the plaintiff intended, or acted in such a way that the defendant had a right to believe plaintiff intended, to permit defendant's wrongful conduct, (iii) the defendant was ignorant of the true facts, and (iv) the defendant relied on the plaintiff's conduct to his detriment. Lottie Joplin Thomas Trust v. Crown Publishers, Inc., 456 F. Supp. 531, 535 (S.D.N.Y. 1977) aff'd, 592 F.2d 651 (2d Cir. 1978).

The mere fact that Defendants heard from third parties that no one had complained about their arguable infringing productions does not in any way estop Plaintiffs from enforcing their rights against Defendants." Showcase Atlanta, 271 U.S.P.Q. (BNA) at 859. Allowing such a defense would compel courts to examine all the other allegedly infringing works on which defendant's reliance was based in order to ascertain whether these works were in fact infringing, thereby creating a number of smaller infringement hearings within a single copyright action. Moreover, there is no legal duty to instigate legal proceedings. It matters not. Provided it does not violate any other provision of law, a video publisher is free to instigate legal action against whomever it wishes. For these reasons, the Court generally refuses to recognize a doctrine of estoppel by transitivity.

Reliance on National business Lists, Inc. v. Dun & Bradstreet, Inc., 552 F. Supp. 89 (N.D. Ill. 1982) is unavailing. In that case, the plaintiff expressly permitted the allegedly wrongful conduct of both the defendant as well as other parties. The defendant's reliance, therefore, was based, at least in part, on plaintiff's acquiescence to the defendant's own conduct. In the instant hypothetical, you are relying entirely on the publisher's conduct toward others. Defendants have therefore failed to document a prima facie case, and accordingly, there is no estoppel.

That's not the same thing. You can't really copyright an idea....that's trade mark.

....WHAT?!?!? You can't copyright an idea, that's right. Copyright law only protects the expression of ideas (Idea Group Puzzle case). I hope you aren't saying protection of an idea is trademark, because that makes literally 0 sense. A trademark is a brand used in interstate commerce. I hope it's just your sentence structure playing tricks on my eyes.

Guys, I'm not a lawyer or anything but I really don't think there's ever been a legal argument against downloading copyrighted materials.

A copyright is literally that, an exclusive right to make copies of something.

Yes you silly goose, and when you download something you're making a copy of the information on the other person's computer/server/whatever.

Wait couldn't you actually be making the grappling world worse. What if you steal the instructionals and then the guy making it can't eat and it forced to get a different job and stops making the videos.

Non-issue, because I wouldn't have bought them anyway. Thus I'm not taking any money from him, because he wasn't going to get any to begin with.

Then since people see that you can't make money making videos because people like you steal them

Infringe! I don't steal!

and they also stop making instructionals.

Marcelo's DVD sets are probably the most pirated DVD set on the interwebs. Did that stop him from making the brilliant MGinaction website? Hell, that website is 100x better than instructionals. Getting to see the moves in live sparring? Related webs of techniques? Feedback from people training with him/the same moves? A FREE WEEK OF TRAINING WITH THE MAN HIMSELF?!?!?!?!?! Arguably, pirating that led to this was a fucking brilliant move!

Fuck, I can feel my grappling powers ALREADY declining!! stop the pirating!! before I start taking aikido!!!

Friend, for whatever reason, people already pirate aikido.

Ultimately though it doesn't matter, because not only am I becoming a better grappler/making grappling community better, my piracy has led to better products! I'm 2x as good, and this means even LESS lonely masturbating in the dark (because I don't torrent porn, that's just wrong guys, those ladies need the money, and if you take the bread from their mouth you know what else is going to go in there instead)!

 

[bagelgod]

Its the abstract concept of knowledge. No, you are not stealing something physical. They still have their technique, but there is a cost involved in the production of the dvd. Also, what is the value of the time it has taken them to acquire their knowledge? Its not as simple as a copy still being available.

Eh? How do you rectify people borrowing DVD's? How do you rectify me showing someone else the technique? My local library had a Judo DVD; I didn't pay a single red cent. Is it still wrong? This is a stupid standard.

Also, more people are exposed to culture because of piracy? Piracy reduces the likelihood of the creation of art. In the nineteenth century, authors had to release their books in serially in magazines because if they published a whole book right away, they'd make no money because they were quickly copied.

That is why we have copyright and patent laws (and a specific Constitutional basis for them). They promote the advancement of science and art.

God fucking forbid people advance science/the arts for a reason other than making money off of consumers, amirite? Admittedly this is my idealist side speaking. I know that I've personally released whatever technical knowledge of BJJ I have on the internet for free (Not that anyone, frankly, would give a shit). I've received donations for a book I wrote because I refused to sell it when I could publish it online for free. I think we should work towards scientific/artistic/technical excellence for its own sake rather than a buck. This is just me wanting to throw it back to ancient times, especially with the hopes that people will stop trying to advance Snuggie technology and get to fucking work on my jetpack. Piracy is my way of advancing my agenda. I'm an activist, not a thief!

Kind of surprising that this is still going on.

I would say that the best deal for the instructors and people interested in their videos is the way Marcelo Garcia has gone with MGinAction.

You get all the videos, the instructor gets pretty much all the money. It is hard to copy, at least for me, since I have no clue how to go about transferring those files on DVD and the killer deal, for me, is that with the introductory registration, I received a free week of training at Marcelo's school.

Since I go to NYC once a year, it works out perfectly, because I don't have to pay to train while there.

That, to me, is the perfect scenario. Everybody wins!

This here is truth. Marcelo makes just as much over the course of a few months as Ryan Hall, but because he's constantly releasing new stuff, pirates can't keep up. The idea of having a free week at his school is also appealing. People pay for it because it's cheap, it's interactive, and is constantly evolving. I think this is also why you're starting to see a lot more people go to this model of a bunch of tiny downloads (cagefilms) or a monthly fee (MGinaction, draculino's, and I think JT or some other famous dude is starting his own).

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

there is a difference, they don't serve society and each other, they serve Big Brother, not greater good but his good

Don't be one of those guys that bemoan Obama as a socialist and thinks it is an insult

You have no idea of my politics, so stop being a dick. I didn't bring up Obama or any other politician, so cut it out.

I'm very charitable and consider myself a servant. That being said, I totally disagree with the concept that the society is more important that the individual.

I'm not talking about a few individuals having a bunch of servants, I'm talking about every individual having the service of the society itself.....not the society owning the servants (everyone). When the society is more important than the people, you get insane taxes, the draft and the curtailment of individual rights. I'm against all those things.

Also, you've completely missed the point of 1984. There is no Big Brother. That is the face that the society gave for the people. He may or may not have existed and may or may not even be alive in the story. It's said that he'll live forever as a picture of the society itself. They are not serving a man, they're serving a symbol of the society.

 

[YeahBee]

You have no idea of my politics, so stop being a dick. I didn't bring up Obama or any other politician, so cut it out.

I'm very charitable and consider myself a servant. That being said, I totally disagree with the concept that the society is more important that the individual.

I'm not talking about a few individuals having a bunch of servants, I'm talking about every individual having the service of the society itself.....not the society owning the servants (everyone). When the society is more important than the people, you get insane taxes, the draft and the curtailment of individual rights. I'm against all those things.

Also, you've completely missed the point of 1984. There is no Big Brother. That is the face that the society gave for the people. He may or may not have existed and may or may not even be alive in the story. It's said that he'll live forever as a picture of the society itself. They are not serving a man, they're serving a symbol of the society.

If it is one or a few doesn't matter, The USSR had its own ruling class even thou they were supposed to be a classless society

we can lean in a certain direction without tipping over

the more an "idea" or knowledge is spread the better, clearly in this case with BJJ instructionals more people having access to them trumps how much the individual who put them out is getting paid. The more knowledgeable the BJJ scene is the more the wanna seek out seminars/camps/travel and/or compete. the more you are into it the more gear you'll amass, and you can't download a gi, and stealing one would be wrong

And in most cases it is probably not mutually exclusive, the material that is being pirated the most right now is Inception, shocker it was also one of the biggest
movies of 2010. I'd wager that the most sold instructional is probably the one pirated the most. Look at who has complained about downloading, frekkin Metallica (and I love their music, have all their albums a few concert DVDs and have seen them twice) alreayd rich superstars, I believe the first case of prosecuting someone was over a couple of Britney Spears songs. plain old greed

 

[fiftysvn]

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need!