Does anyone butt scoot anymore? How to beat the BS 101

[-guerilla-]

I used to feel this way, now I'm not so sure. BJJ doesn't necessarily have to precisely replicate the ground portion of MMA for it to be valuable. For example - among all the grappling arts, BJJ may be best known for its guard work and teaching guys how to fight from what are typically seen as disadvantageous positions, not because it's a good idea to be there but because if you find yourself there it's good to be skilled from those positions. Hence BJJ values and emphasizes guardwork, and has a ruleset that allows people to really hone in on the guard. If BJJ were to de-emphasize the guard, I wonder if actually it would become less applicable for MMA fighters to train in BJJ - right now they do it largely for submission defense, and to learn some basic guardwork, particularly closed and half guard; to get good at takedowns and top control/GNP I think most of them do MMA-specific training and some wrestling-specific cross training. In some ways, specialized arts are actually more valuable for that reason - a lot of them will also train boxing with specialized boxers, TKD or Muay Thai, etc.

Submissions wrestling on the other hand often does try to replicate MMA a bit more - ADCC's ruleset etc. Even there you get some kind of weird stuff though - leglock and entanglements that would get you in a lot of trouble with strikes involved etc - and with the lesser focus on guard passing and sweeps, and greater emphasis on leglocks it's at least somewhat debatable which one is actually more applicable to MMA.

Guard is a 100% losing position

I used to call it out in my MMA gym and encouraged my fighters to immediately scramble to their feet and never to apply the full guard unless they were in an absolutely desperate situation

I think sport Jiu-Jitsu inStills a fantasy in young men that they can dig around for inverted yomamagogoplatas while the muscle bound wrestler hovering over them isn't stopping their lights off for some magical reason

You have a great point in that learning to fight from a losing position is important but the only good guard is one used momentarily and with the purpose of scrambling to your feet ASAP

 

[Kforcer]

MANY fighters have been koed in all stages of the "imanari roll" with all kinds of kicks variations.

The trouble is WHILE your "rolling" not afterwards

It's as mutch of a spin than a roll, very dangerous if in soccer kick MMA

I can only think of Imanari-Hansen. And Imanari wasn't really going for an Imanari roll--he was diving pretty straight-on for the leg.

 

[KenkaBancho]

Guard is a 100% losing position

I used to call it out in my MMA gym and encouraged my fighters to immediately scramble to their feet and never to apply the full guard unless they were in an absolutely desperate situation

I think sport Jiu-Jitsu inStills a fantasy in young men that they can dig around for inverted yomamagogoplatas while the muscle bound wrestler hovering over them isn't stopping their lights off for some magical reason

You have a great point in that learning to fight from a losing position is important but the only good guard is one used momentarily and with the purpose of scrambling to your feet ASAP

I shared your opinion until I got older. Takedowns are rough on your knees, and everyone suffers wear and tear over time. If butt scooting allows for greater grappling longevity, I think it should be encouraged.

 

[sb413197]

Guard is a 100% losing position

I used to call it out in my MMA gym and encouraged my fighters to immediately scramble to their feet and never to apply the full guard unless they were in an absolutely desperate situation

I think sport Jiu-Jitsu inStills a fantasy in young men that they can dig around for inverted yomamagogoplatas while the muscle bound wrestler hovering over them isn't stopping their lights off for some magical reason

You have a great point in that learning to fight from a losing position is important but the only good guard is one used momentarily and with the purpose of scrambling to your feet ASAP

I fundamentally agree with your assessment regarding it being unwise for MMA fighters to be "happy" lying in guard - in today's rule set that means you're losing (Pride was different) and building a strategy around that generally isn't good because it's near-impossible to win a decision off your back, even if you're more effective in striking and threatening with submissions. I don't agree with how things are scored at all these days, but that's the reality in the US-based MMA organizations.

However, I do think it is valuable to get a bit more proficient in guard than just learning to stand up again (which admittedly IS a super-important skill - you make a good point there). There will be situations that this is just not feasible - for example if a MMA fighter is facing someone with vastly better takedowns (NCAA D1 champion etc) - I've seen a lot of fights where this strategy feeds perfectly into the wrestler's strategy as the defending fighter gets more and more worn out and beaten up from getting slammed back down again. Also if a fighter is rocked/hurt, and finds themselves in guard, being able to lock things down and avoid damage/control posture for awhile (possibly until the end of the round) is very good, and that takes a lot of guard work to get good at. Finally, getting good at fishing for leglocks ala today's no-gi grapplers can be a good antidote to a superior wrestlers and lead to sweeps or at least getting back to the feet in wild scrambles - it's not safe to try and hold down a leglocker.

 

[-guerilla-]

I fundamentally agree with your assessment regarding it being unwise for MMA fighters to be "happy" lying in guard - in today's rule set that means you're losing (Pride was different) and building a strategy around that generally isn't good because it's near-impossible to win a decision off your back, even if you're more effective in striking and threatening with submissions. I don't agree with how things are scored at all these days, but that's the reality in the US-based MMA organizations.

However, I do think it is valuable to get a bit more proficient in guard than just learning to stand up again (which admittedly IS a super-important skill - you make a good point there). There will be situations that this is just not feasible - for example if a MMA fighter is facing someone with vastly better takedowns (NCAA D1 champion etc) - I've seen a lot of fights where this strategy feeds perfectly into the wrestler's strategy as the defending fighter gets more and more worn out and beaten up from getting slammed back down again. Also if a fighter is rocked/hurt, and finds themselves in guard, being able to lock things down and avoid damage/control posture for awhile (possibly until the end of the round) is very good, and that takes a lot of guard work to get good at. Finally, getting good at fishing for leglocks ala today's no-gi grapplers can be a good antidote to a superior wrestlers and lead to sweeps or at least getting back to the feet in wild scrambles - it's not safe to try and hold down a leglocker.

All excellent points

I think wrestlers are extraordinarily easy to leg lock and as Gi less Jiu Jitsu evolves in that direction it definitely gives the guard puller a submission opportunity

I use the sakuraba grappling style exclusivelIy

quite often I attack for a leg submission with no intention of finishing it but exclusively to reverse my position or escape with a stand-up

Thats the best way to work off the bottom

 

[-guerilla-]

I shared your opinion until I got older. Takedowns are rough on your knees, and everyone suffers wear and tear over time. If butt scooting allows for greater grappling longevity, I think it should be encouraged.

I guess if you're an aged individual just looking to get your heart rate up for health reasons you can butt scoot around the mat if you want to...

Instead of shooting for dramatic takedowns off giant strides and step-ins just tie your opponent up with a good old-fashioned greco Russian head and arm two-on-one series and drag them down to the mat where you can pull guard all you want if you lose position on the drop

Thats the lazy smart old man way to get that fast kid down on the mat