do you "shadow spar" or "technique spar"

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by recoil, Nov 28, 2005.

  1. recoil

    recoil Orange Belt

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    in the thread about sparring i mentioned a special type of sparring called "shadowsparring".... this can also be reffered to as "technique sparing"

    "technique sparring" or "shadow sparring" is with no pads but very light....... when i say no pads i mean nothing but cup and mouthpeice..... it is only to work technique and all the intricate blocking and parrying of kicks in muay thai.

    its like a game of perfect technique... you let your opponent win for a while, then you win for a while.... the point is you work on the technique of what your doing. the emphasis is all on kicks and knees and parrying kicks and clinching and so on. there is little punching... you use your hands mostly to block and parry kicks and catch middle kicks and such.

    this should feel very flowing and absolutly painless. someone really good at this should make it look almost like hard sparring but its flowing and there is very light contact.... eventually you know exactly what your opponent will do and you will leave proper openings or them when they need it and they will do the same for you.

    it takes a special type of fighter to do this responsibly but this is very valuable for fighters who are primarrily knee and kick fighters.

    i learn the most this way

    my question is: how many of you do this regularly?

    i find it makes my game improve more than hard sparring by far.... and from what i hear, some thai camps do all sparring like this and never really spar at all

    this is the best way to get the thai style working for you

    do you guys know what im talking about? do you do it regularly? and do you find it valuable? compared to harder sparring?
     
  2. scorcho

    scorcho Brown Belt

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    We do it quite a bit at my vale tudo school, especially to avoid injury if someone has a fight coming up. I think it is very valuable, but only in combination with hard sparring. You need to get used to getting hit, period.
     
  3. recoil

    recoil Orange Belt

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    i am definetly not knocking hard sparring... you need it.... i just think you need it much less than drills like these
     
  4. Marvin Covar

    Marvin Covar Amateur Fighter

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    yeah, we have something like that except with a different name. the krus in our gym call it "partner play."
     
  5. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I disagree. Many young guys I've seen over the years can do shadow, technique, also known to old-schoolers as one-step sparring very well and execute when they're basically allowed to with minimal resistance. But when it came time to full speed, power, intensity, the feel of a REAL fight where their opponent is going to do everything in their power to resist they became a deer in the headlights.

    Both are equally necessary. Right now there's an unusual mystique in MMA where the fighters seem to have TREMENDOUS respect for each-other. I can understand because it's budding as a Sport and they want to earn the good-graces of the general public, show that they're athletes and competitors, not sociopaths who just want to destroy other people. So a lot of times you'll see guys VERY hesitant or wary to REALLY unload. In the next couple of years as the Sport grows moreso this will disappear even from the lower-ranks, and you'll have fights more the way real fights are...not so much posturing and over in the blink of an eye...or a painfully long move-for-move chess match.
     
  6. Elpresidente

    Elpresidente Brown Belt

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    I think both sets of sparring are essential for a fighter, one step sparring is very good for the less experienced to get used to timing/distance/technique but anyone with dreams of doing the real thing must spar hard eventually and regularly.
     
  7. recoil

    recoil Orange Belt

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    i shadow spar every second practice..... but i only spar medium once a week.... and i only spar hard once a month.

    i used to spar hard alot but learned better ways to go about it now.... i truly beleive that once you get above the begginner level and loose the deer in the headlights look when something goes wrong, you can become a world class fighter with very minimal hard sparring..... of coarse you need to get hit and feel what its really like but that stuff is in the past once your pro. yes i still think that pros should spar but it becomes much less nesseccarry.

    the best pro that i know hasnt sparred hard in 5 years.... just alot of pads and technique..... i think he should spar a little but who am i to say that. he is better than me and could kick my ass.

    by the way im talking strictly for muay thai

    its different for mma and other martial arts
     
  8. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Wait a minute...you think someone can be a World-class Muay Thai fighter without hard sparring?

    That must be a modern-thing. No self-respecting MT instructor I've ever heard of would agree with that. To my knowledge most solid Pro Muay Thai camps spar as much as Boxers do, 4-8 rounds once per week.
     
  9. recoil

    recoil Orange Belt

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    every solid pro muay thai facility that i have been to sparres MEDIUM 4-8 rounds once a week.... as does my gym.(on sparring day we might do more depending on the flow)

    all the gyms i have seen that spar HARD alot do so because they are inexperienced

    maybe our perception of what is hard sparring and medium sparring are different. hard sparring to me is the same or close to being in a real fight in the ring. medium sparring is stiff but you dont follow up and try to knock each other out or hurt each other.

    the way that i have been taught is from my instructor and he is a self respecting instructor. he.... he trained at the Jet center with benny the jet and he trained at Chakuriki(sp?)..... and if those arent self respecting instructors for him to learn from i dont know who is. my instructor also used to be pad holder for laverne clark(sp?) and a head instructor at Sik Tai, a very respectable canadian gym.

    by the way, whats your record Kabuki? and where do you train?
     
  10. tamburello

    tamburello Green Belt

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    Wand didn't seem to show much respect for Kondo when he stomped his head through the floor. A normal person would have cringed and turned away watching something like that, but folks like us on this message board probably jumped up and started cheering and yelling. Strange lot, we are.

    And yes, I agree with your point on sparring.
     
  11. Eduardo R.

    Eduardo R. Amateur Fighter

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    Hey recoil just curious, who is the best pro you know? I'd guess your talking about Giuseppe and he does spar. I'd tell ya how we do it at my gym but, you know,secrets and all :p
     
  12. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Wanderlei Silva = sociopath just looking to hurt other people. lol

    So from what you're saying what I'm reading is:

    Hard sparring = fighting, just at the gym and not for money.

    Medium sparring = sparring.

    There's a difference between fighting and sparring man. If guys are fighting in the gym they don't know that difference. Like you said, in-experienced. But that's why the call sparring "sparring"...otherwise it's a fight.

    I'm going to be debuting Pro Boxing next year. Late spring if all goes as planned. Right now I train alone here in South Florida, but come Spring of next year I'll be in Vegas training and getting a couple first-Pro bouts under-way...then if all goes as-planned I'll be returning to Florida at a new gym in Orlando, where I'll be fighting Pro out of and perhaps Coaching, we'll see.

    So as of right now I have no Official record.
     
  13. recoil

    recoil Orange Belt

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    hey ed.... i was talking about mark bourgouis..... he is probably the best pro i know personnally(not too well). him or zuniga.... and its not like im tight with them.

    the whole issue of sparring came up with mark and he told me some interesting stories about the old days at Sik Tai and how he never spars any more due to injuries and such. he told me of some certain old pros from winnipeg who i will not mention their names and how he has pictures of them in Holland broken down and weeping in the corner of the gym because they couldnt hack it anymore.

    giusseppi is more of an aquaitance. i would not say i know him well..... ive talked to dave more than giusseppi but i guess dave is done with fighting.
     
  14. recoil

    recoil Orange Belt

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    hey Ed ...by the way.... who elso at ckmtc has like 4-6 fights and is near my weight (165 fighting weight)..... i get the feeling you guys dont have anybody at my weight so it might get a little harder to fight on your shows.

    i think i can cut to 155 if i need to and it might be what i'll end up doing cuz thats the hot weight classif your not a heavy.
     
  15. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    shadowboxing/tech sparring is all good trust me, it helps develop timing...tech..and conditions ur body for the movements necessary to perform certain striking.

    that being said it can be a bad thing for two reason- 1) most people don't stay aware def, i don't know how many times i watch people just throw diff strikes or combinations/etc; but don't go through their def checks/progressions. Watch alot of guys hitting the bag/pads or shadowboxing and after a minute or two u notice they stop paying attention to any sort of educated footwork ( circling..in/out..side to side..etc). More importantly they stop doing checks/blocks and/or giving angles and using head movements, an so on; they just get into the habit of throwing. So while their off skills get better...they start stunting def awareness because they don't practice having ish come back at them. 2) u don't have any real concept of taking a solid shot and people who have not sparred w/real power tend to crack when the dynamic factor of absorbing shots come into play; it affects ur stamina, mobility, handspeed, timing..etc If u are not prepared for it, all the things u dev or are gifted w/go straight to hell.

    As teddy atlas says everyone can fight, the 1uestion is can u fight back; this is the perfect example, everyone can hit hard and fast w/crisp tech when nothing is coming back. But the minute someone fires back it changes what u can throw...and what u can do. An if someone hits u it really changes what u can or will due... so everyone needs to know they can do what they do in light sparring in hard sparring otherwise u are no better than an untrained person, they might not have skill; but they are prepared and capable to take shots and return fire. Alot of guys use the other two tech in place of sparring cus they don't want to get beat up or look bad.

    i agree w/kabuki..u have to spar frequently to compete and if just for self def u have to spar occassionally just so u know how to react when hit or know how to apply ur off when someone is attacking u....
     
  16. Eduardo R.

    Eduardo R. Amateur Fighter

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    I am really surprised to hear that Mark doesn't spar with his full steam ahead style. I'm not really sure who is around your weight, theres Kurt McKinnon, he only has 1 fight so I dont know. If you went down to 155 or maybe even 160 theres more guys there.
     
  17. recoil

    recoil Orange Belt

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    yeah i was also surprised when mark told me that.

    also my coach said that even in the early days mark just diddnt know how to spar.... he would just end up sparring like he was in the ring for real. i think mark is a phenominal fighter though, and i think i could learn alot if i got to spar with him, but not if he hits me as hard as he does in fights.... thats just asking for an inury.
     
  18. Hamit Aktas

    Hamit Aktas Amateur Fighter

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    If I had to, I'd pick hard sparring before anything else.
     
  19. phenomfan1529

    phenomfan1529 Brown Belt

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    same here
     
  20. DCmoney

    DCmoney Banned Banned

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    Use the Shadow Spare to warm up, and the technique spare to practice specifics.
     

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