Do u honestly think that prime Fedor could beat prime JDS?

[TJ177]

Even when they were in the same org though results between them and elsewhere don't really provide a defintive arguement, Werdum beat Cain who beat JDS who beat Werdum.

I think back in the day Fedor's wins over Sylvia and Arlovski pretty much ended any argument the UFC HW division was at a simiilar level to Pride's.

The main issue today is more peoples view of the quality of the HW division as a whole.

We're in agreement.

 

[jjjjjjjjjjohnny]

Prime, motivated fedor beats every man to ever live the earth.

 

[beater81]

Fedor would wipe the floor with JDS in his prime.

 

[djacobox372]

Prime Fedor was a better version of Cain V... JDS might catch him, like he did Cain, but that's his only chance.

 

[r-harper-1]

I’d like a Fedor chances especially if it hit the ground .... Prime JDS is definitely capable of winning

 

[realdmone1]

THERE AINT NO MORE PRIME JDS-NEVER WAS--THERE IS ONLY THIS AWFUL REPRESENTATION WE KNOW NOW--SORRY GUYS

 

[DarkRaven]

I don't disagree with a lot of what you put. I certainly respect Crocop and think he was a very unique and entertaining fighter. If you followed my posts in this thread, I was largely trying to stay away from my specific hypothetical matchups across era because there are obviously a million different things that are unprovable. Training/jetlag/testing/ring/refs/rules - etc - the eras are very different.

The one area I do think that CroCop gets a little bit too much credit is his all-time standing based on his body of work within his era. Which is the only area that can really be measured. At BEST he was 3rd behind Fedor/Nog - and with the benefit of retrospect a strong case could be made that he was even behind Mir and Randy on the UFC side. The issue I have is that some people want to put Crocop top 5 all-time, which, there just isn't evidence for.

I've rewatched a lot of Pride over the pandemic, and I'm reminded about how entertaining it was and how some of the long-time opinions have formed. I'm reminded of how gigantic a star CroCop was, and how much the Japanese crowds would roar whenever he would be on screen. He felt bigger than life - especially in some of the classic wars with Fedor or Wand or Barnett. But if you look critically at where a lot of that rep came from and where his best wins came from.... it's pretty underwhelming. He was master of the highlight reel KO. He felt menacing. And I think a lot of the time people will throw out things like "Prime Crocop" on their memory of what it felt like to watch him fight, and not what he actually wound up doing.

At best??? CroCop dismantled BigNog on foot while Nog failed to score any TD. He lost only because he accept fight on ground. In rematch CC mops the floor with Nog.

Problem with CC is his ground game, except for defense he had 0 sub game and he was 100kg guy who depended on his speed. Everyone who can take him down can win, even Schaub (and it did happen that way) so how would i rate him against Mir and Randy, well he can win both, he can loose both, i guess same could be said for Fedor and Nog match

 

[TJ177]

At best??? CroCop dismantled BigNog on foot while Nog failed to score any TD. He lost only because he accept fight on ground. In rematch CC mops the floor with Nog.

Problem with CC is his ground game, except for defense he had 0 sub game and he was 100kg guy who depended on his speed. Everyone who can take him down can win, even Schaub (and it did happen that way) so how would i rate him against Mir and Randy, well he can win both, he can loose both, i guess same could be said for Fedor and Nog match

It's entirely possible that CC could have won a Nog rematch, but if we're ranking them on what did happen, it's really tough to rank CC over Nog.

Nog did at least get to hold the Pride belt (albeit pre-Fedor)
Nog did beat CC head-to-head (albeit a greener CC)
The Randleman loss by CC was way worse than any of Nog's Pride losses (and it may have been a freak thing, but it did happn).

To me this is kind of in-line with how I view CC - his actual results don't ever match up to this ideal Prime CC status. And when people speculate hypothetical match-ups (ie Prime CC vs Prime Cain or whatever), there is this tendency to use an ideal CC version.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

At best??? CroCop dismantled BigNog on foot while Nog failed to score any TD. He lost only because he accept fight on ground. In rematch CC mops the floor with Nog.

Problem with CC is his ground game, except for defense he had 0 sub game and he was 100kg guy who depended on his speed. Everyone who can take him down can win, even Schaub (and it did happen that way) so how would i rate him against Mir and Randy, well he can win both, he can loose both, i guess same could be said for Fedor and Nog match

Mirko actually showed a very good aptitude for submission defence almost right from the start of his career, was able to survive on the ground with Saku and Wanderlei even before he developed good takedown defence, Nog was literally the only fighter ever to sub him or to even come close during his prime years and he did it via a very nice transition armbar when CC was bucking him off.

I suspect vs most wrestlers even if they could get Mirko down they wouldnt have been able to do very much too him on the ground.

 

[Brettco]

JDS was an absolute destroying machine and looked unstoppable until the incredible Cain! I doubt very much that Fedor would’ve been able to stop prime JDS and the reason why is JDS is extremely hard to take down and control and he stings u from every direction especially his uppercut. What do u think?

Yes. In 15 seconds

 

[Fight Professor]

JDS' ground game is way too suspect for prime Fedor.

 

[ironfist05]

yeah I definteily think he could. I guess it isn't guaranteed but I don't like JDS' odds.

 

[Yellowcardeeo]

Are they fighting in a Ring or Cage?

Pride rules or the lame UFC sanctioned rules?

In a pure street fight, Fedor definitely takes it over 90% of the time because his transition speed mastery from stand up to ground is way superior to JDS.

Plus the guy used to train with bears in Russia like Khabib did..

Come on TS..

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I do actually wonder whether JDS wouldnt have been better suited to a ring, its a smaller fighting era BUT when your backed up the barrier doesnt limit your defence nearly as much and you can't be clinched into it as easily.

Cain's gameplan in the 2nd and 3rd fights would have needed to be very different in a ring.

 

[Deleted member 567183]

Absolutely that is why Fedor was undefeated for almost 10 years

 

[DarkRaven]

It's entirely possible that CC could have won a Nog rematch, but if we're ranking them on what did happen, it's really tough to rank CC over Nog.

Nog did at least get to hold the Pride belt (albeit pre-Fedor)
Nog did beat CC head-to-head (albeit a greener CC)
The Randleman loss by CC was way worse than any of Nog's Pride losses (and it may have been a freak thing, but it did happn).

To me this is kind of in-line with how I view CC - his actual results don't ever match up to this ideal Prime CC status. And when people speculate hypothetical match-ups (ie Prime CC vs Prime Cain or whatever), there is this tendency to use an ideal CC version.

Agree about the hype, but when we compare head to head CroCop was better figher then Nog. He would have won rematch. He should have won original. Nog posed no stand up threat, he had no explosive wrestling to TD Mirko. Only way he could have won is if Mirko accepted his game and Mirko did. The Randleman loss is strikers loss, you can look opposite and Randleman got sub by kickboxer, should we highly rate Mirkos 0 sub game. Is Randleman a can because of that?

I understand why you rate them but head to head i disagree on that rating.

 

[TJ177]

Agree about the hype, but when we compare head to head CroCop was better figher then Nog. He would have won rematch. He should have won original. Nog posed no stand up threat, he had no explosive wrestling to TD Mirko. Only way he could have won is if Mirko accepted his game and Mirko did. The Randleman loss is strikers loss, you can look opposite and Randleman got sub by kickboxer, should we highly rate Mirkos 0 sub game. Is Randleman a can because of that?

I understand why you rate them but head to head i disagree on that rating.

That's fair - and realistically Mirko may have won a rematch and been the better peak fighter. But I usually give Nog extra "credit" for having that super strong run from 2000 to 2003 in the early days, and then eventually tacking on that UFC title. For all-time status and looking at the overall resume, Nog IMO was able to rack up a larger range of success at the highest levels. For me.

(That said - I do respect Mirko for ending on a strong winning streak and avenging some losses.)

 

[DarkRaven]

Mirko actually showed a very good aptitude for submission defence almost right from the start of his career, was able to survive on the ground with Saku and Wanderlei even before he developed good takedown defence, Nog was literally the only fighter ever to sub him or to even come close during his prime years and he did it via a very nice transition armbar when CC was bucking him off.

I suspect vs most wrestlers even if they could get Mirko down they wouldnt have been able to do very much too him on the ground.

Just short. Mirkos motto could be endurance is speed, speed is life? More so then lets say McGregor.
You need to separate things. Mirko had great intitial sprawl and good guard.

If you bypassed sprawl and cough Mirko flatfooted he goes down np. Same with a guard. It is solid elite Werdum style guard, but without Werdum style sub threat you can stay there and pound and pound and pound..... There is no problem in his guard, but there is problem in his endurance when you take him down.

Compare that to Stipe-DC or Maia-Usman TDD. DC catches Stipe double leg, goes to single, they spin around 30 sec before DC secures half ass TD. Doesn't pass, doesn't do damage and Stipe frees himself and goes up. How much energy did just DC waste to achieve nothing. This is something you can call elite.

Mirko on other hand had elite sprawl and elite full guard not elite TDD.

Quote: "I suspect vs most wrestlers even if they could get Mirko down they wouldnt have been able to do very much too him on the ground."

Try to be speedy Mirko if DC pounds you for 5min on ground This is problem i am talking about. Francis has elite sprawl and moment Stipe hits that chin and you start evading punches, boom you are out of balance and Stipe TD.

And it did happen against Gonzaga six months after beautiful Wanderlei KO. He got TD after bodykicking Gonzaga. Mirko got timed, TD, elbowed the fuck out, sapped of endurance before KO.

This is what happens when you extend your range by kicks like you suggested. Kicks and TD have to be extension on your punching game. Without it you have jack shit.

You posted this before but as I said then this isnt what happened in the fight.

How many times does Fedor look to clinch up with Mirko in the opening 5 mins? I only count once and that is quite half hearted. As I said before the reality is Fedor focused almost entirely on a pure striking contest with Mirko in the first 5 mins of the match.

He was sucessful in pushing Mirko back with those tactics, didnt land masses on him either as Mirko himself showed incredibly good defence but the real story of that fight is that Fedor was able to neutalise Mirko's counters, the left straight and the body kick which punished guys like Aleks, Herring, Wanderlei, etc he was able to block/slip like nobody else ever was.

Mirko wasnt having sucess with his offence so when he got a glimmer or hope he desperately rushed to exploit it, missed his LHK and then semi slipped coming forward allowing Fedor to clinch and take him down.

Something we discussed before.
AlexEm - S.Kharitonov only Sergei fought like a long fighter. Alex was trying to get a ground game going, failed multiple times. He was getting pieced up until he rocked Sergei with overhand and KO with another if i remember correctly. Alex was slower version of Fedor, so he ended up like brawler. Even Sergei is to slow to be real range fighter but he has that boxing knowledge to keep opponent at distance. In the end they are same reach if i remember correctly.

Alex-Mirko Alex doesn't use jab or distance properly, doesn't feint and doesn't have proper boxing combination. He is same like his brother except he doesnt have that explosive speed pop in his hand so he cant surprise ppl, cant close distance properly so he cant TD ppl. I mean he is like OldFedor.

After Alex was rocked Mirko was all over him i think he even ate kick to the head on ground until they got separated by reff. How is that any different then sequence with Fedor. He was all over Fedor when he felt blood and got taken down. How is that desperation?

Same goes for Fedor TD. Fedor is not a wrestler, he is Judoka. He moves your jab hand with his and jumps with overhand. (more like a front hook) If you curl up and he clinches he tries TD, if you like Mirko step back he restarts.
Nog didnt step back so he gets TD, Mirko did so he restarted. Fedor is covering ground with overhand, not double leg, he cant get to clinch if Mirko steps out.

My point is. TD is go to Fedor plan, no one in their right mind would like to stand and bang with Mirko, but you cant TD someone who moves that much. He barely did 2 knees from half assed clinch. Compare that with Alex fight, who still didnt TD Mirko who moved much less then against Fedor.

My second point would be, Mirko isnt really a counter striker, not a proper one and while i remmember whole point of the fight it sounds retarded. He was more of a pressure fighter who didnt like to fight in pocket, so he just waited opportunity to explode and pressure you until KOs you. I dont see desperation just Mirkos game plan he used always (evade, evade, evade, tag, pressure, kill) If ref stopped them, you think Mirko would rush Fedor after restart??? No he wouldn't, pressure would be gone. He would restart.

Also Fedor didn't neutralize nothing. If that high kick connected Fedor would go face down and CroCop would do what he did always. (evade, evade, evade, tag, pressure, kill) He didnt, Fedor TD and won. (again no setup by Mirko just HK)

The reality is we were seeing some very high level boxing from Fedor in that fight, MMA adapted definately but timing/movement on an advanced level. I think this really comes back to the idea that MMA fans are so acclimaised to stiff upright boxing that they view this as "technical" when in reality tis actually quite limited.

Sugar Ray Leonard? sloppy brawler in MMA land, didnt keep his hands up, pump the jab and stay bolt upright his entire career.

Hmmmm. It is reality you want us to take. I see something different. Fedor defensive boxing is ok. He is fast and he can slip, problem is his offensive boxing and opening he makes.

How many times did we see him in his CroCop fight completely missing this shot, ending up short with CC moving to outside with Fedor completely unbalanced? Or better using this shot as a entrance into pocket. Dont we mock Francis for the same thing?

Its not about upright broom up the ass mentality but Fedor overextending and unbalancing himself when punching and doing it often. You miss that against JDS and any better striker with range you will get KO.

If Fedor was so advanced and technical he wouldn't get pieced by Rogers and Maldonados the moment his natural speed declined even an inch. He wouldn't be dominant, but he wouldn't be reduced to brawler.
He has same problem as Wilder, natural gift hiding poor technique. We see thing differently.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Just short. Mirkos motto could be endurance is speed, speed is life? More so then lets say McGregor.
You need to separate things. Mirko had great intitial sprawl and good guard.

If you bypassed sprawl and cough Mirko flatfooted he goes down np. Same with a guard. It is solid elite Werdum style guard, but without Werdum style sub threat you can stay there and pound and pound and pound..... There is no problem in his guard, but there is problem in his endurance when you take him down.

Compare that to Stipe-DC or Maia-Usman TDD. DC catches Stipe double leg, goes to single, they spin around 30 sec before DC secures half ass TD. Doesn't pass, doesn't do damage and Stipe frees himself and goes up. How much energy did just DC waste to achieve nothing. This is something you can call elite.

Mirko on other hand had elite sprawl and elite full guard not elite TDD.

Quote: "I suspect vs most wrestlers even if they could get Mirko down they wouldnt have been able to do very much too him on the ground."

Try to be speedy Mirko if DC pounds you for 5min on ground This is problem i am talking about. Francis has elite sprawl and moment Stipe hits that chin and you start evading punches, boom you are out of balance and Stipe TD.

And it did happen against Gonzaga six months after beautiful Wanderlei KO. He got TD after bodykicking Gonzaga. Mirko got timed, TD, elbowed the fuck out, sapped of endurance before KO.

This is what happens when you extend your range by kicks like you suggested. Kicks and TD have to be extension on your punching game. Without it you have jack shit.

Sorry but again I think what your posting has very little relation to reality "bypass the sprall and Mirko goes down" is just nonsense, watch the Coleman fight, watch the Yoshida fight, watch the Randleman rematch, all get the clinch and none are able to do anything with it as Mirko sucessfully blocks and pushes them off. Whats more I think when you look at Mirko's latter career you see the sprall and movement become less possible in terms of defence yet he's still he's very hard to get down and able to fight off people like Allakbari.

Really I think what you see is that in modern MMA very few fighters have that movement/sprall side to their takedown defence because they tend to use the cage instead backing off. Khabib's tactics for example are based on exploiting this, fighters these days tend to be easy to single leg, they back off to the cage for defence, he switches to a body lock and drags them off the cage.

In terms of takedowns off of body kicks I believe Gonzaga was the only person ever to get Mirko down doing that and I think this was part of him giving an exceptional performance, I don't think he'd be able to catch kicks like that consistantly at all the same way Randleman wasnt able to land that punch again in the rematch. Mirko's body kick in his prime was so fast with so little tell that it was very hard to take him down off of.

AlexEm - S.Kharitonov only Sergei fought like a long fighter. Alex was trying to get a ground game going, failed multiple times. He was getting pieced up until he rocked Sergei with overhand and KO with another if i remember correctly. Alex was slower version of Fedor, so he ended up like brawler. Even Sergei is to slow to be real range fighter but he has that boxing knowledge to keep opponent at distance. In the end they are same reach if i remember correctly.

Alex-Mirko Alex doesn't use jab or distance properly, doesn't feint and doesn't have proper boxing combination. He is same like his brother except he doesnt have that explosive speed pop in his hand so he cant surprise ppl, cant close distance properly so he cant TD ppl. I mean he is like OldFedor.

I'm sorry but again I find you arguments simple bare no relation to what actually happened in matches, Aleks/Sergei was NOT a fight were Aleks spent the match trying to get his grond game going and YES he was very much fighting "long". Aleks was the one trying to stay on the outside hitting Sergei with jabs and straights whilst Sergei was trying to get inside more and exploit otherwise superior technical boxing.

Against Mirko Aleks is trying to close the distance a lot more and really you look at Mirko's peak years and almost nobody tries to work range against him because they know it puts them at such risk from kicks.

After Alex was rocked Mirko was all over him i think he even ate kick to the head on ground until they got separated by reff. How is that any different then sequence with Fedor. He was all over Fedor when he felt blood and got taken down. How is that desperation?

Same goes for Fedor TD. Fedor is not a wrestler, he is Judoka. He moves your jab hand with his and jumps with overhand. (more like a front hook) If you curl up and he clinches he tries TD, if you like Mirko step back he restarts.
Nog didnt step back so he gets TD, Mirko did so he restarted. Fedor is covering ground with overhand, not double leg, he cant get to clinch if Mirko steps out.

My point is. TD is go to Fedor plan, no one in their right mind would like to stand and bang with Mirko, but you cant TD someone who moves that much. He barely did 2 knees from half assed clinch. Compare that with Alex fight, who still didnt TD Mirko who moved much less then against Fedor.

Again you keep saying that Fedor was focused on the TD in those first 5 mins but the reality is he only tries to clinch up once the entire time and that is quite brief and half hearted. As I said the real story of that fight is that Fedor looks to strike with Mirko and YES I think there is a very significant difference between Aleks and Fedor in the way he responds. Against Aleks he's much more in control, taking his time and picking out the LHK finish. Against Fedor he's not in control of the fight and when he gets a glimmer of an opening he rushes trying to finish, misses his LHK and then stumbles rushing forward with his boxing and gets taken down.

My second point would be, Mirko isnt really a counter striker, not a proper one and while i remmember whole point of the fight it sounds retarded. He was more of a pressure fighter who didnt like to fight in pocket, so he just waited opportunity to explode and pressure you until KOs you. I dont see desperation just Mirkos game plan he used always (evade, evade, evade, tag, pressure, kill) If ref stopped them, you think Mirko would rush Fedor after restart??? No he wouldn't, pressure would be gone. He would restart.

Well something like the Herring body kick would be almost impossible to claim wasnt a counter but even besides that I think counter fighting is more than just counting during an opponents strike, its countering forward movement and Mirko did this as well as anyone in MMA history.

Also Fedor didn't neutralize nothing. If that high kick connected Fedor would go face down and CroCop would do what he did always. (evade, evade, evade, tag, pressure, kill) He didnt, Fedor TD and won. (again no setup by Mirko just HK)

Actually this kick is not nearly as close to landing as some seem to think it is, as I said Mirko is clearly rushing it, Fedor can see it coming and has his defence up but because Mirko is pushing he slips forward as he's throwing it and thats why his calf grazes Fedor's head. You compare that to Aleks or Igor and they can't get their guard up at all or Wanderlei who looks to block to the body.

Again this is the difference between Mirko in control of the fights and picking his shots out at the correct moment and Mirko not in control of a fight and trying to rush his offence when he has an opening.

Yes Fedor had neutralised most of Mirko's offence, he was able to slip his straights/jabs and block hios body in in a way nobody else was.

Hmmmm. It is reality you want us to take. I see something different. Fedor defensive boxing is ok. He is fast and he can slip, problem is his offensive boxing and opening he makes.

How many times did we see him in his CroCop fight completely missing this shot, ending up short with CC moving to outside with Fedor completely unbalanced? Or better using this shot as a entrance into pocket. Dont we mock Francis for the same thing?

Its not about upright broom up the ass mentality but Fedor overextending and unbalancing himself when punching and doing it often. You miss that against JDS and any better striker with range you will get KO.

If Fedor was so advanced and technical he wouldn't get pieced by Rogers and Maldonados the moment his natural speed declined even an inch. He wouldn't be dominant, but he wouldn't be reduced to brawler.
He has same problem as Wilder, natural gift hiding poor technique. We see thing differently.

Rogers didnt "peice up" Fedor at all, he landed one jab early on, actually a very well timed jab but after that he lands next to nothing on Fedor standing and rocked multiple times himself before the finish. Fedor's striking was becoming more one dimentional and a bit sloppier by that point but really it was the grappling were he looked vunerable against Rogers, that spell on GnP was Brett's best moment by far.

Yes I do think Fedor's boxing defence was very good by MMA standards, again watch the Mirko fight and you'll see in those first 5 mins he slips Mikor's left straight many times.

I don't think thats "natural ability" alone, we've seen a lot of guys with speed in MMA who can't do that, Arlovski for example or indeed even Aleks. I would say actually the reverse that because its a higher level technique it is more vulnerable to decline, part of that decline is because speed is needed to carry it out although also a relative lack of training is likely a factor.

Reem against Ngannou shows he's never been very good at that kind of exchange, he does it very poorly and leaves himself totally square and open to be countered.