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Do away with the belt system!

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by paulchu, Nov 25, 2005.

  1. Commissar Gold Belt

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    Why? Throw on a gi and see how well you fare.

    I'm probably the most traditional a grappler you can find. I follow the same traditions and honor in BJJ as I do in Judo. I live in my gi and I pile respect in the belts.

    They aren't be all, end all, but its the best way to express your skill level.

    Oh, I think Hogar's a black belt in traditional jujitsu.
     
  2. flyingknee16 Brown Belt

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    They either keep their gi on or go no gi when I go with them (but I noticed they lately have just taken off their gi tops when they go with me no gi). I don't have a gi so I can't throw on a gi to see how I will fair with them . . . but I'm assuming it's fair when I go with them no gi vs gi because they can use the gi to their advantage and I don't grip/exploit the gi like others might like to do . . . although it wouldn't matter anyway I suppose.

    I know a lot of people like the gi, but I just like no gi better. But this is a whole 'nother thread...
     
  3. marine Yellow Belt

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    well since yall are arguing about the belt system can someone please explain to me what belts do bjj have.
     
  4. blindgod Blue Belt

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    White
    (Yellow)
    (Orange)
    (Green)
    Blue
    Purple
    Brown
    Black
    Black n' Red
    Red

    The ones in parentheses are only for juniors under the age of 16.
     
  5. marine Yellow Belt

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    i was watching something and they had a guy that had a red a blue belt
     
  6. Gsoares2*** Banned Banned

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    I train the gi and like it better.. I add one or two days a week in to no-gi as it helps my game with the under and overhooks..

    But the gi also adds to my game.. makeing me use technical escapes vs, just ripping out of alot of things.. then when i go tto nogi.. i rip out of the same things using the technique as well.. makes it much easier. I dont use collar chokes much.. so alot of the skills transer over.

    When i take the gi off i feel faster, lighter, i have more and better gas..... there are so many plusses to training with the gi.. its just stupid not to.. If you dont like it fine, but you cant ignore the benefits.


    Ive tried training only no-gi.. then when i went to gi i sucked..
    But whenIm training only gi, i also do well in nogi.. funny how that works out.
    Ive tried it out for my self.. and it has help me to improve faster... Take it for what its worth.

    So i train mostly gi..

    Belts - thread starter
    Your aruement is = "I think they should do away with degrees when you graduate highschool, and college" Belts are accomplishments just like a degree. You perform certain task, and live up to a certain level and you "graduated" to the next belt. A black belt is your professor.... or does that just make way to much sense?

    I think keeping the belt system is fine.. It makes it easier to recognize skill levels with out higher guys literally have to hurt alot of people to prove their worth..
    Also easy to recognize seniority, and who you should ask questions to.

    The belts also give people goals, goals to set, goals to reach.. which results in better overall outlook towards how to achieve things in life as well.

    It gives people confidence, and pushes them to do better.

    I really dont see any good reason to get rid of the belt system.. since black belts are still kicking your ass all over the place.. how can you have anything against their ranking system, when it works? They beat you, you dont beat them... When you reach that level maybe your outlook on this subject will change.. but untill then... Shut the fuck up, cause really man... who the fuck cares?? their just belts.
     
  7. paulchu Guest

    ^ Thank you for not reading a goddamn thing I wrote...
     
  8. sakufan Purple Belt

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    relax. you'll get that blue belt someday and you'll start doing better against them. just keep training.
     
  9. blindgod Blue Belt

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    In comps, if both people are wearing the same color gi, they sometimes have one person wear a multi-colored belt so it's easier for the judges to tell the two apart.
     
  10. GuardGame Brown Belt

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    For Christ FUCKING SAKES!! if u dont like the belt system, like somebody said before..WEAR A WHITE BELT Paulchu...belts and rankings WILL always be a part of martial arts...if u dont like it..make ur own martial art without belts...i love the belt system..it lets u know where u stand as far as skill goes..and where other people stand as well..LIKE I SAID...if u dont like it..WEAR A FUCKING WHITE BELT...i bet YOU wont even do that...enough said
     


  11. Now that's funny.
     
  12. DMcKayBJJ Blue Belt

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    LOL...yeah, paulchu's starting to sound like the guys who are desperately trying to bench 135 at the gym, and are arguing about the physics and science behind it...meanwhile, the rest of us are putting up 225 and more with ease...

    One other thing to add in support of the BJJ belt system, which most people agree is arguably the most legit in martial arts: there's only 5 colors! Admittedly, I'm not into the whole stripe thing (4 per level until black). As someone alluded to above, it would be like going to high school, college, and graduate school and getting a "mini-diploma" to hang on your wall after finishing every year...just keep it simple and wait till you get the big degrees.

    But seriously, paulchu, if you don't count white, which is "beginner" in most all martial arts, and black, which signifies expertise, BJJ has only 3 levels in between. When compared to other arts that have MANY more levels between white and black, BJJ's really not so bad.

    Now take your Muay Thai example that you love so much, which has "no belts." But it still has levels. I've never done MT, so I would be a beginner (white). Someone who has done it for several years, and competed, and won a number of tournaments in his MT career, may be considered to have adequate expertise in the art (black). Then you've got a whole lot of people who practice MT who aren't as noobish as I am, but not as experienced as the champ. So automatically you've got 3 categories of people who "practice Muay Thai."

    BJJ has white for newbs, black for champs, purple for the middle group, then blue and brown to show whether you're experienced but still close to white or experienced but close to being a champ.

    3...5...is that really so much of a difference to be getting all worked up about it?

    And FYI...my sig is one of my favorite lines from "The Karate Kid." I use it not to show that I'm against all belt systems, but to show that I train to learn and progress, not just train to receive a belt. And if you're familiar with the movie, when it comes time for Daniel to compete, Mr. Miyagi STILL had to decide on what belt level Daniel was...black...in order for him to compete with the appropriate caliber of opponents...
    Judge: "Belt...what belt is he?"
    Miyagi: "Uh...why matter?"
    Judge: "This is open division...it's for brown belt and above."
    Miyagi: "Oh...uh, boy black belt."

    And last but not least, and certainly the most OBVIOUS argument for belts, is that those of us who wear gi's need something to keep them closed (well, at least some of the time).
     
  13. paulchu Guest

    everything you guys keep bringing up, i've already addressed in the original post.

    for the, what, 3rd time. Muay Thai does not have a belt system.

    so you take martial arts just to let people know what color belt you are? of course not, so why do you NEED one?

    you guys keep repeating the same thing over and over again, "belts show rank." WELL NO SHIT. Now let's think on a level that requires more than an iq of 3.

    What I'm suggesting is, if you take away the belt system, you will surely get rid of any possibility of a McDojo situation. If you have to prove your worthiness of a belt in competition, then why do you really need a belt? If you dominate a competition, then you have a rank. What does the belt have to do with anything other than to show other people that you're better or under them? If nothing else, than it is just a VANITY marker. Something to make you feel like you have a bigger penis.

    I train grappling at a school that does not teach direct BJJ, but instead teaches more MMA tactics. Today we drilled on breaking the guard and focused on ground and pound. We do not have a belt system, and my trainer does not flash his belt around. He has been in several fights, including a viroty in the DEEP organization. What will adding belts to our organization do to make it better?

    So I'll ask you, in a way that you all can understand: What does the addition of the belt system do to make BJJ better?
     
  14. blanko Guest

    it's amazing how the belt system pisses off so many people. Why does it piss you off? It helps people progress and helps orgaize competitions
     
  15. Tyboeski White Belt

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    Nah I like belts. I think its funny when my blue belt students tap 2 stripe brown belts. Im not saying my students are amazing im just pointing out belts are handed out like hotcakes in fake schools and its funny for them to get a suprise slap in the face.
     
  16. Oktavius** Brown Belt

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    Hmm, not a bad idea to have competition ranking only, but then for guys that dont compete how do you know where they are at? Some of those guys might be good and have great teaching ability but without a belt you would never know it.
     
  17. DirectDrive Black Belt

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    comparing BJJ fighters to MMA fighters and then claiming the blets are for nothing is comparing apples and oranges. if we are talking about gi matches then we would have something to talk about.
     
  18. blindgod Blue Belt

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    It's not a matter of adding belts makes BJJ better; BJJ has always had a belt system. You're advocating getting rid of the belt system, so you have the responsibility of giving reasons for changing something that is already in place. It seems that you have made three points so far:

    1. Having belts can lead to McDojoism if instructors have students pay to receive belts they don't have the skill to deserve.

    True, and this has happened in numerous martial arts. But it has not yet happened in BJJ. One tactic to keep this from happening would be to get rid of the belt system. But another way, what has been done so far, is to have the BJJ community police itself. Eliminating belts may not be needed. Only time will tell.

    2. There are people skilled in grappling who don't have belts.

    So what. If someone's good, they're good; if they aren't, they aren't.

    3. There are other martial arts without belts.

    Again, so what. If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

    Question: if the belt system is junked, what would people wear to keep their gis shut?

    And while I prefer no-gi to gi, I like belts. Gives me something else to hang on to.
     
  19. DojoJanitor White Belt

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    Paulchu, you have to trace back the origins of the belt system, which I shall briefly summarise:

    -Kano (Mr. Judo) more or less invented the concept of full power training in martial arts as we know it (as is different from combat sports like sumo, queensbury and wrestling).

    -Even then, you couldn't have top students duking it out with newbies without some kind of marker as to their various ability. Otherwise - people would get hurt. It was also a shortcut to matching up people in sparring practice, and how far you students could take things in sparring.

    -Hence, white belt (noob) brown belt (intermediate) and black belt (advanced).

    -The other belts were added in the middle later by other martial arts (such as karate) and do not necessarily mean the same thing.

    - It is fair to assume that BJJ took it's grading straight from Judo. However, things have changed and the original concept of the Japanese black belt is something akin to what we now understand a BJJ blue belt to be (ie someone that is technically proficient in basics).

    - Now, to the question - what do belts add to BJJ? Well, the simple answer is to imagine what would happen if you took them away:

    First, in a marketplace that is dominated by either foreign or foreign trained teachers, there would be little or no means of telling how experienced your teacher is. Most BJJ practitioners from blue belt upwards can kick the ass of a noob off the street with no prior grappling training. But it is still better to be trained by someone of great experience and technique - most people understand a black belt (in BJJ) to have this.

    Second, EVERYONE knows that in most academies there is at least one fool that loves to give out advice to other students, even though he is pretty much useless himself. The belt system is an automatic indicator (in BJJ) whether or not said advisor is an advanced student or just another beginner with a big mouth. Sure - without belts, this would eventually be found out - but with belts you could be saving a lot of bad advice.

    Third, tournaments would suck without belts.

    Fourth, culturally, people need belts. If you are emontionally prepared for training without recognition, then good on you. But most people around the world are not. It's no crime to aspire to a higher level. Some countries (like Japan) revolve around certification and ranking.

    Lastly, what happens in MMA gyms and non-ranking schools? An unspoke pecking order is established from the instructor downwards until you get to the first timers. You hang with the guys about your level, try to beat the guys above you and learn from them - and make sure you never submit to those you consider less proficient than yourself. Does this situation sound familiar? The only thing that is actually missing is the strips of cloth - and since BJJers and judoka (and karateka etc) wear jackets - you might as well materialise that pecking order in terms of a belt.
     
  20. colinm Brown Belt

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    who fucking cares?
     

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