Difficulty Working on Top when Starting from the Knees

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Edmundus, Jul 9, 2010.

  1. Edmundus

    Edmundus White Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    London, England
    I'm lighter than most others in my class, and combined with not being sure how to initiate takedowns when starting from the knees (seems extra difficult when sparring partners are grounded), I usually end up playing guard when sparring. While this has improved my open guard, I'm concerned that my guard passing is lagging behind, so I'd prefer starting out on top sometimes.

    What's the best way to do this? Is it acceptable to just ask to start in someone's closed guard (I noticed in another thread that some people here share my feelings about knee fighting being awkward), or are there techniques from the knees that I should be learning in order to get to work on top more?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Rjay

    Rjay Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,473
    Likes Received:
    1,207
    Location:
    China
    Yes.

    Fighting it out from knees is a waste of time. I always start out on my butt in sitting guard, or if I go to my knees its implied the other guy starts out from sitting guard instead.
     
  3. spaceman82

    spaceman82 Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    0
    i have a similar problem to yours, so i'll sometimes ask my partner to start from guard if i know him well enough. it gets awkward making that request every time though, especially if you're sparring with someone who's not really your friend. i saw one strategy mentioned on here recently, which was to go directly from that position into a sweep, and you might want to search for that thread to see if it has any info/links. i would post it, but i'm not sure where it was exactly other than that it appeared in the last couple of weeks.
     
  4. tk99

    tk99 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    735
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Nor Cal
    Starting from the knees remains a thorn in my side. My preference would be to start standing and work more clinch grappling. Starting on knees....it's silly.
     
  5. bjornvil

    bjornvil Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2009
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Iceland
    One starts sitting guard, other starts passing guard... switch after each sub.

    Easy!
     
  6. ShanghaiBJJ

    ShanghaiBJJ Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2006
    Messages:
    3,319
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Shanghai
    This, just ask. It is training, not a competition trying to figure out who the best midget wrestler is.

    No offense to real midget wrestlers intended, you guys are awesome!

     
  7. Apaulo

    Apaulo White Belt

    Joined:
    May 18, 2010
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    0
    just push the pace on them and grab a leg tuck ur chin and dive into them.
     
  8. oyaji poi

    oyaji poi oyaji belt

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2004
    Messages:
    5,616
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Soap Land
    I don't like midget wrestling either, it's really just doesn't have much carryover to any other aspect of grappling. I usually do one of two things.

    1.

    Armdrag: Usually I just do a quick armdrag to take the back, or to initiate a good scramble. Even if I can't take the back from the armdrag, usually the other person falls to their side or pulls guard. So you'll be on top or have their back, both are good.

    2.

    Collartie/Head control:

    A. Snap the head down into a guillotine. If the guillotine fails you still have top position similar to a sprawl. You can work to the back or do whatever. If after the snap-down they pull their head away before you can lock in the guillotine you can duck down and do a double-leg. Not a real double-leg, but its a similar position to hitting a double from a scramble, which is good practice.

    B. Do a knee-tap. Get head control, for example with your right arm. Use your left to touch the outside of their right leg. Push with your right arm and turn left, while blocking their right leg with your left hand. They can't move their leg away very well so usually they fall over. Be careful of the armbar from this though. I use it all the time and have only been armbarred less than 10% of the time. The rest of the time the guy just falls over. Unlike with the armdrag however, you will never end up on their back, and rarely in side control. Most likely you'll end up in their open guard or half-guard.

    C. Charge forward - with a collar-tie/head control, keep your elbow close to your side and put your forehead under their jaw bone on the opposite side of their face from where your collar-tie is. For example, you use your right arm for the tie, put your forehead under their right-side jaw (their right, your left). Use your left hand to grab his right-leg. You will be at an angle to your opponent, so you can charge straight forward and drive him back at an angle. Pull down with your right arm and lift up with your left. If you can you could also reach right behind him and hook both of his legs with your left arm. Scoop his legs as you drive forward at an angle. He'll likely end up on his left side and you'll be on top. Sometimes guys will turtle when you hook both of their legs. This is fine, you're still on top.


    Alternatively, you can just butt-scoot around and get better at open-guard sweeps.
     
  9. StranGold**

    StranGold** Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,260
    Likes Received:
    0
    if you want to be in someone's guard, i say just go forward and their response should be to put you in guard.
     
  10. Mumrik

    Mumrik Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2006
    Messages:
    10,767
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Denmark
    There are full length instructional videos/DVDs just on takedowns from the knees.
     
  11. Darkslide632

    Darkslide632 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2005
    Messages:
    2,564
    Likes Received:
    192
    We very rarely actually work from knees. Generally we pick a position based on the experience/ability levels of the people rolling. That being said... learn ude gaeshi from the knees. It's my favorite.
     
  12. MUFC

    MUFC Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Messages:
    2,719
    Likes Received:
    4
    One person starts in guard, or seated guard. It makes more sense. Just ask to start in guard, or on top.

    Yesterday one of my training partners said he wanted to work on his guard, so I let him start there. Normally I play guard so it was good for both of us as I got to work on my passing and he got to work his bottom game.
     
  13. [Tycho?]

    [Tycho?] Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,793
    Likes Received:
    2
    I actually learned some "takedowns" from the knees, but I avoid using them now because practicing knee fighting just gets me into bad habits. If I want to play guard, I sit back. If I want to pass, then I just push forward until my partner pulls guard.
     
  14. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    10,166
    Likes Received:
    24
    If you really want to be on top, just slap hands and stand up. Your opponent will either pull open guard, shoot for your legs, or stand up with you. If he pulls guard, try to pass. If he shoots, sprawl. If he stands up, try to take him down.
     
  15. johnkreese

    johnkreese Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2009
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    New York
    Work a sweep, and land in the guys guard?
     
  16. gtsbjj12**

    gtsbjj12** White Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd suggest just telling the guy that you have been needing to work your top game more and asking if he wouldn't mind being on bottom. He should be very understanding; unless he's an ass.
     
  17. The Black Spoon

    The Black Spoon Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2004
    Messages:
    341
    Likes Received:
    0
    Learn to sweep. If you spend most of your time in guard and cant sweep them, you need to work on your guard.
     
  18. An end for

    An end for Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,867
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    My own personal hell.
    Very informative post. I'll try to follow it to the letter next time I roll. I've been pulling guard too often when I start from the knees... as the saying goes, a dog bitten by a snake gets afraid of sausages.
     
  19. Podgorny

    Podgorny Green Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2009
    Messages:
    1,105
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Northeast Ohio
    I have seen some good advice from guys in this thread, I prefer to pull guard and work on sweeps - however your training partner should have no problem starting on the bottom. If all else fails, keep rolling with guys whose bread and butter is their guard game.
     
  20. StranGold**

    StranGold** Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,260
    Likes Received:
    0
    whoa, whoa, whoa. you actually want us to read the TS issue and try to help him with it?

    you ask too much sensei
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.