Differences in skill between blue belts

[slideyfoot]

People are placing way too much emphasis in tapping others in training. Really, that means nothing: there are far too many variables involved in class, most of which have been mentioned (they were taking it easy, they were working on adding a new technique to their game, they were trying to work you through a move, they've just come back from injury so tapped to stop their bust elbow getting fucked up again, they want to work a specific position, etc).

Training in class is not about 'winning' or 'losing', its about learning. If you tap someone else, or you get tapped, who cares? Save the win/lose mentality for competition (where you know your opponent is going all out to stop you getting anything), not your training partners (who are trying to help you get better: hopefully you're doing the same for them).

I'm always linking to this thread, but it bears repeating:

You see, I am a great believer in the article of BJJ etiquette that talking about the people you've submitted in training is a no-no. Anything can happen in training, especially when it's used as it is intended: As a laboratory for experimentation as opposed to a venue for competition. I've been swept, reversed and submitted in training doing some new things, and the same has happened to my training partners. Big Fucking Deal. [...]

The second event that influenced this was a talk I had at a training partner's farewell party, where we were discussing if anyone had recently submitted one of the higher belts who is notoriously hard to submit. I had done so in the past, with something I'd consider fairly ugly and sloppy, but never repeated the performance. I was almost ashamed to bring it up. It just seemed like a dick thing to do, as it was done in training, using a move illegal under CBJJ rules, using mainly muscle and speed to set it up and crank it.

Later, when the alcohol had worked its way out of my system, I realized that it was, in fact, a dick move. I mean, this was a singular event that had happened years in the past, basically executed out of sheer fear of losing that only tapped the guy out because he was afraid of injury. How am I supposed to measure my performance by that?

 

[Dedicado]

I started training about two weeks ago and i love it. I get my ass handed to me by most of the blue belts when we roll after practice. One of the blue belts though I rolled with and tapped him three times in about 5 minutes. He is very unathletic but I figured he would still be able to handle me easily since my lack of experience and the fact he has probably 70 pounds or so on me. The other blues are probably 5 times better than he is. Is this normal for their to be such a large gap in skill between people of the same belt color?

yes. Some blues get it easily and quick, others take years to get it. Some blues are excellent others are abysmal. YOu get the blue for knowledge of basic BJJ, not for being a tapout machine nobody can touch. I've been tapping blues for years before I ever got mine. But these weren't the best or even the challangeing ones.
Still, at our club, you best not be tapping out all the time to a new guy if you want to keep your belt blue, know what I mean?

 

[Dedicado]

Maybe he was giving you subs. I do that for inexperienced students all the time. You should not be able to tap any blue belt 3 times in 5 minutes.

unless e really sucks!

 

[Tony Manifold]

Training in class is not about 'winning' or 'losing', its about learning. If you tap someone else, or you get tapped, who cares? Save the win/lose mentality for competition (where you know your opponent is going all out to stop you getting anything), not your training partners (who are trying to help you get better: hopefully you're doing the same for them).

This is a really big point and bears repeating. For example, I am working on my butterfly guard right now, so everything revolves around be getting to butterfly guard. I am butt scooting a lot and sometimes guys will do a torrado (I know I spelled that wrong) guard pass, or just back up and get to their feet and get around me. So in training they are passing my guard but it is a fictional setting. I am a wrestler and judo player more the BJJ guy (at this point) there is no way in hell I am ever butt scooting. But there are maybe 6 people in the gym that could take me down and we almost never start from standing anyway, so I end up butt scooting to work on the techniques I need to work on.

Personally, when I look for success in rolling, it is in the sense that I finally nail a techinque I am working on, be it a sub, a sweep or escape. If I hit that technique and get tapped later, I still consider it a success in training.

 

[Darksky]

In regards to Royce and belts hee is my experience.

Royce gave me my blue belt after I trained for 1 year and won my weight class at the Gracie tournament in 1998 by submitting all six of my opponents. If anything he was very stingy with belts back then, with some guys having to wait 2-3 years. Does he have an actual school now? I think he mainly travels so he probably can only give out belts at the seminars.

Any who..... been all down hill since 1998, man I miss my white belt.

<----- takes up Tai Chi

 

[DaRuckus337]

Training in class is not about 'winning' or 'losing', its about learning. If you tap someone else, or you get tapped, who cares?

You can say this all you want, but it won't make it true and it won't change human nature. People often compete hard during live rolls (it depends on the athlete and the circumstance, but it has its place in training). People don't like to get particularly like to get dominated when they are actually competing pretty hard, even if it is by a teammate. People especially don't like to get beat by people of lower rank/skill. It's embarrassing, and a blow to their confidence. And that's only natural.

I agree with the tone of your post, as well as the 'don't talk about results from the practice room' message, but that doesn't mean that people don't care about what goes down during a live practice roll. We all care. We all want to do well in a competitive roll against a teammate who has a higher rank/skill, and take pride (albeit in silence) when we do secure a catch or dominate the match. We all want to avoid getting caught by a teammate of lower rank/skill, and feel irritated/insecure when we do get caught. It's normal, it's natural, and in my opinion, it's a sign that you actually give a shit about your performance. Keep it to yourself for the most part, don't be a dick in practice or in public about training results, but caring about your performance - even in a practice match - is just fine.

 

[slideyfoot]

It's normal, it's natural, and in my opinion, it's a sign that you actually give a shit about your performance. Keep it to yourself for the most part, don't be a dick in practice or in public about training results, but caring about your performance - even in a practice match - is just fine.

Absolutely: I'm speaking of the ideal. Everyone has an ego, and nobody likes to tap. Its when you start making too much of it that it becomes a problem, turning class into a permanent pseudo-competition where people are too scared to try anything new because they're afraid of getting tapped.

I'll quote my favourite thread (sorry to keep doing that, but I strongly feel it makes a lot of important points people should take on board) again, where Yrkoon9 makes a great post (which basically agrees with what you just said):

I am not ego-less. And I laugh at those people who say they are. It's a lie. Nobody likes to tap out or be dominated. [...]

It sucks to actually say I am guilty of this. But I am. I'll bet we all are in one way or other.

But then on the other hand I sincerely look forward to rolling with the higher belts or the bigger guys because it is a real challenge. So I know it isn't necessarily a fear of losing. I have lost plenty. The novelty has worn off there. But losing to someone who isn't as good as me? I don't like that. Let's be honest there IS a hierarchy at the gym. It might not just be belt colors. But eating your way up the food chain feels good. Getting eaten by lower fishies is not cool.

So what I am saying is although I KNOW what the right thing to do is I don't always do it. [...]

It breaks down to this: We are all motivated for different reasons. Some people are motivated by fear, and others by success. Many times being motivated by fear is negative while being motivated by success is positive.

 

[Tony Manifold]

Again, I can't really argue the above posts. I am competitive as fuck, I hate to lose. But I try to subject that desire to my desire to learn. The important point is to do the best you can in that regard.

One thingI liked when I took judo is that we did have the odd mini competition in class. We would play judo tournement style with boundaries, a ref and spectators. It was a great experience for people who have never competed or needed work on competition strategy (which was different then Randori). It also subtly showed the difference between practice and fighting.

 

[DaDiazBros**]

Yea it depends. Some just get their blue belts because...Well...They're "qualified for one," due to mat time.

You have to remember, your jiu jitsu schools are first and foremost a business, the average wait for a blue I think is about a year or so. The academy I go to, you can get it in 6-8 months (if you're extremely dedicated and know all moves)...Maybe even shorter...

 

[Jinzumkei]

I don't train Gi jiu-jitsu, I'm going to start this summer. That being said I train no-gi and MMA and I typically roll with some legit brown belts at our gym. People tell me I'm like a high blue belt or low purple belt level, and I can catch brown belts. Conversely guys who are at "blue belt" level can catch me.

The other thing as has been touched on is styles match up. Coming from a wrestling background I can outwrestle most people, but I oddly enough prefer playing an open/ submission oriented guard game. Some guys have my style figured out and give me fits. Other guys just don't match up well with me (other guard players who I force to play top game by pulling guard).

I've found there is a big difference in abilities though between people who are legit (gi) blue belts and people who are referred to as "blue belt level grapplers" by my trainer and the better guys at the gym.

The difference between blue and purple is the biggest jump from what everyone tells me. At blue people kind of have the standard ammo (armbars, triangles, d'arce etc.). Purple is where you really start to flow from sub a, to sub b, and just keep going from move to move to move. This has been my experience grappling with people of various belts at least.

IMO, It's harder to gauge belt level in no-gi grappling tho. I think often times the levels are inflated. For instance, i went to a different school to do some no-gi grappling and they thought I was a purple or brown since I was consistently tapping purples and giving their browns a hard time. But really I'm a a blue belt and it really shows when I put the gi on. No-gi grappling is not a very good metric of how you'll grapple once the gi is on.