Dem debate tonight

[GhostZ06]

How it is that a far right libertarian who is a former rabid Ron Paul supporter and apparently adheres to that economic ideology and now supports Sanders is beyond my understanding.

Just what are you about?

yeah because we have so many other choices to choose from. Ron paul should have won a lot of debates when he was running, but look how stupid shit has gotten since then.

 

[second sight]

I have never construed progressivism to ever be so narrowly defined or ideologically anchored/restrained. At best, you can argue that, because it was never narrowly defined beyond a political renaissance of sort, it never explicitly broached the topic of public ownership positively or negatively. In fact, wasn't the last official Progressive Party comprised largely of socialists? Either way, I don't regard it to have a stance on the subject.

However, this is a rare substantive and interesting post from you, so I will indulge. Your differentiation, as pertains to properly-rigid modern party definitions, would analogize to the distinction between Social Democrats and Democratic Socialists. I, identical to Bernie Sanders as it happens, prefer to identify as the latter, but espouse the immediate policy of the former. I do support public ownership of some industry and resource allocation, but certainly not all and certainly not in leaps and bounds.

The point being, there is no stopping point, we'll take over healthcare because it a human right.
College education, well that a fundamental human right as well.
We have to strengthen the right of all workers via unions.
But we can't stop there...we have to provide everyone with a job a living wage, right?
Large corporations must serve the common good and pay living wage.
Those same corporations being granted constitutional rights is absorb and must be overturned.
The highest age earners need to be capped.
Wealth, not just income must be taxed.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

I do agree that her constant resort to playing on Obama's popularity and casting him as a spitting image of her policy is annoying, especially given how dirty Clinton treated him in 08.


I really hope Trump wins the (R) nomination so that Hillary has a cakewalk general. That way I can abstain from voting for her and salvage some sense of political autonomy. Such a dirty politician, she is.

You know, I don't think she's that dirty. Just an average politician. Way more civil and decent than anyone on the GOP, of course.

It's just that Bernie's super honest. Only gets negative after being endlessly provoked.

 

[second sight]

Yep, and 17% of GDP and rising on HC will collapse this country if allowed to continue, and is the number 1 driver of our debt, you right leaning people love to howl at the moon about.

don't move the goalpost what does adding one and a half trillion dollars to the tax role do to the tax rate

 

[VivaRevolution]

don't move the goalpost what does adding one and a half trillion dollars to the tax role do to the tax rate

If you added 1.5 Trillion, it would go up. No Sanders supporter is arguing this.

What we are arguing is that over a 10 year period, it would save this country 6-10 Trillion dollars.

Pointing to why we can't keep the system how it is, is not moving the goal posts.

 

[SouthoftheAndes]

@ SouthofmyAnus shoo fly

You seem miserable.

yeah because we have so many other choices to choose from. Ron paul should have won a lot of debates when he was running, but look how stupid shit has gotten since then.

That is not my point. I don't see how one can like Sanders and then also like Ron Paul ideologically they are completely different and Anung has admitted he would vote for a Republican or anyone other than Clinton as a protest vote. Even Bernie wouldn't want his fans voting for Ted Cruz if he losses the nomination.

 

[second sight]

If you added 1.5 Trillion, it would go up. No Sanders supporter is arguing this.

What we are arguing is that over a 10 year period, it would save this country 6-10 Trillion dollars.

Pointing to why we can't keep the system how it is, is not moving the goal posts.

his supporters are dumbasses, we aren't talking about them, sanders is calling for FREE healthcare for citizens and illegal aliens, adding one and a half trillion dollars to our debt, this isn't monopoly money, it has to be paid for.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

She's pinning her hopes on the minority vote and I actually thought it was a clever strategic attack intended to drive a wedge between Bernie and black voters.

Yeah, it was definitely a smart move. Shitty but smart and it'll pay off.

As a whole, Democrats are happy with Obama so making Bernie out to be an Obama hater is a good way to make him unlikeable.

 

[SouthoftheAndes]

If you added 1.5 Trillion, it would go up. No Sanders supporter is arguing this.

What we are arguing is that over a 10 year period, it would save this country 6-10 Trillion dollars.

Pointing to why we can't keep the system how it is, is not moving the goal posts.

Respond to this since you think Sanders is so much different than other 'politicians'.

 

[speakhandsforme]

The point being, there is no stopping point, we'll take over healthcare because it a human right.
College education, well that a fundamental human right as well.
We have to strengthen the right of all workers via unions.
But we can't stop there...we have to provide everyone with a job a living wage, right?
Large corporations must serve the common good and pay living wage.
Those same corporations being granted constitutional rights is absorb and must be overturned.
The highest age earners need to be capped.
Wealth, not just income must be taxed.

Yeah, pretty much.

My "progressive" view is more pragmatic though and would stop short of measures that can be demonstrably shown to be unfeasible. For instance, the clear statistical data suggesting that the death penalty is far too costly, that private healthcare systems are far too costly, and that de-unionization has hurt our economy relative to the rest of the world all fall into the umbrella of a pragmatic progressivism. But my application would probably stop short of, say, a $15 federal minimum wage, which I certainly oppose. I oppose because, my shallow knowledge of economics tells me that a federal minimum wage in such a large country of differing markets, commercial, industrial, or agrarian, would be disastrous given the disparity in living expenses and economic development. However, if I were to see a CEPR study or something that told me otherwise, I might reconsider.

 

[japman40]

don't move the goalpost what does adding one and a half trillion dollars to the tax role do to the tax rate

I'm curious to what is your preferred solution to this healthcare problem. Republicans never have a response to this issue.

Knowing well that the current model is unsustainable. Over 10k spending per person, 17% of gdp, over 3 trillion in spending, on average over 42k Americans die due to no health coverage, and #1 reason for filling bankruptcy is due to health bills.

http://time.com/2888403/u-s-health-care-ranked-worst-in-the-developed-world/

 

[silicavaginitis]

 

[silicavaginitis]

 

[second sight]

I'm done for today

 

[japman40]

I think Hillary did much better in this debate and came off less robotic and pretty pragmatic. Surprisingly Bernie did well during the foreign policy section and came in well informed. This debate was more of a tie, than the previous ones.

I hope the whole hanging off Obama's nut sack backfires on Hillary though. Bernie definitely burned her a couple of times due to this. Hopefully the viewers saw past Hillary trying to paint Bernie as anti Obama.

 

[silicavaginitis]

 

[Cocrehamster]

How it is that a far right libertarian who is a former rabid Ron Paul supporter and apparently adheres to that economic ideology and now supports Sanders is beyond my understanding.

Just what are you about?

To a lot of Ron Paul supporters the most important issue is foreign policy. Bernie is by far the he closest to Ron Paul on foreign policy. I was a big Ron Paul supporter and still admire him but disagree with him on a lot of economic policy issues - mainly monetary policy. On foreign policy, especially Syria and Iraq, he and Rand are still the only one who makes sense to me but I got pretty excited hearing Bernie talk foreign policy tonight. I would consider voting for Bernie over Hillary, and all the remaining republicans just based on foreign policy because foreign policy is where the President has the most control over. There's no way his proposals get through congress.

 

[silicavaginitis]

 

[silicavaginitis]

 

[japman40]

his supporters are dumbasses, we aren't talking about them, sanders is calling for FREE healthcare for citizens and illegal aliens, adding one and a half trillion dollars to our debt, this isn't monopoly money, it has to be paid for.

His supporters know that he is not asking for free healthcare, only idiots think that's his plan.

"To pay for it, Sanders would impose broad-based taxes: a 6.7 percent payroll tax on employers and a 2.2 percent tax on individual incomes under $200,000 or joint incomes under $250,000. (Progressively higher rates for higher-income earners are described in his 2013 bill.)

Sanders’ campaign says hisMedicare-for-all plan would save the average American family $3,855 to $5,173 in annual health care costs.

Instead of an insurance premium, a family making $50,000 — roughly themedian family income — would only pay $1,100 in health care income taxes. That’s $3,855 less than what it would pay out-of-pocket for the average premium ($4,955, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation) and $5,173 less if a deductible ($1,318, for individual coverage) is factored in.

As for employers, the 6.7 percent payroll tax means employers would put up $3,350 for family coverage. That’s also thousands less than the average employer premium contribution of $12,591."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ch-would-bernie-sanders-health-care-plan-cos/

So instead of paying a premium, deductibles, co-pay, etc... Americans pay a 2.2% medicare payroll tax. This payroll tax covers all of your healthcare. Not that hard to understand