Crime DEI strikes again, female cop shoots complying man with his own gun

[cooks1]

It'd probably take 15-20 female cops to physically stop me if they could even do it. I don't think they can. They would need to shoot me. I'm 6ft4 about 230lbs. Good shape. I could lay them out left and right.

I wouldn't even need to fight.. I could easily dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge my way through all of them to get away. Juke and jive.. They got no hope. They'd be at my mercy.

OK. How many male police officers would it take to apprehend you without tasing or shooting you? Or do you only try your luck with women police officers. My guess is that while it might not take 15, it might take more than however many male officers would likely be there should the moment arise.

PO's are not elite combatants. Generally, they are slightly above average physical specimens with some tactical training. Which would give them the advantage maybe 75% of the time overall. Then you have to DEDUCT the many variables working against them. They don't get to strike first. It's a tough gig. Until about 5 years ago, I would not have given the vast majority of PO's, male or female, much of a chance of apprehending me without shooting or tasing me. But that would never have been an issue because I respect all PO's and would likely comply to instruction regardless of my physical superiority. I don't think I've ever been pulled over by a cop I could not have eaten for lunch. There are a few that eat lunch at my poke place I would not want to try my luck with though.

 

[650lb Sumo]

It's a growing problem in the UK as well, where falling police numbers result in more, "single crewing" - one copper per car responding to incidents. Front line coppers hate it, understandably. Single crewing is especially dangerous in rural communities, where lone officers can be a very long way from any back up.

Also (in my non expert understanding) in Scotland the police need corroboration to charge, ie the word of one copper is not enough, where it would be in the rest of the UK. Which puts your lone copper out in Altnaharra in an even weaker position. Probably not a lot of serious crimes happening out there though to be fair. IIRC there are some exceptions for minor things like driving without a seatbelt or something.

The not proven verdict and related reforms: consultation

This consultation seeks views on the three verdict system in Scottish criminal trials and if the not proven verdict were to be abolished, whether any accompanying reforms would be necessary to other aspects of the criminal justice system.

www.gov.scot

The requirement for corroboration has been a unique feature of criminal law in Scotland for hundreds of years. The basic principle of the corroboration rule is that an accused cannot be convicted of a crime, unless the essential facts of the crime are able to be established by evidence from at least two independent sources. The essential facts are:

1. that the crime was committed; and

2. that the accused was the person who committed the crime.

Evidence can take many forms, including direct evidence such as that of an eyewitness, admissions made by the accused, and evidence of facts and circumstances (known as circumstantial evidence). At its most simple, corroborated evidence may come from two eyewitnesses who can both say they saw the crime being committed and can identify the accused as the perpetrator. Alternatively, one strong, clear source of evidence may be corroborated by evidence of facts and circumstances pointing to the guilt of the accused, such as a witness who saw the accused running from the scene of the crime, at the relevant time, holding a weapon that matches the relevant description.

 

[650lb Sumo]

Until about 5 years ago, I would not have given the vast majority of PO's, male or female, much of a chance of apprehending me without shooting or tasing me. But that would never have been an issue because I respect all PO's and would likely comply to instruction regardless of my physical superiority.

Would you comply if the cop or cops were giving you unlawful commands?

/

https://digitalcommons.jsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1065&context=etds_theses

The study concluded that women and men practice policing differently, and that recruiting more females could help reduce excessive force...

Researchers in the field studying use of force in policing claim that female officers produced a neutral policing style that is more sufficient for de-escalating violent situations. Studies revealed that female police officers are less likely to use confrontation than male officers...

Some research suggests that the mere presence of a female officer being called to a scene with the potential for the use of force decreases the chances of a forced altercation...

Studies have concluded that female officers practice less confrontational policing and write fewer citations. Also, studies have stated that female officers do not receive as many complaints as male police officers. Overall, departments with a higher female law enforcement population received fewer complaints from the public in 2016. An additional benefit of having more female officers in a department is that these officers often display more effective communication skills than their male counterparts. Utilizing effective communication skills has proven to de-escalate violent situations that otherwise could have resulted in the use of force. Wright and Headley (2020) found that female officers use more excessive force against the opposite sex compared to male officers.

The present study was unable to find any statistically significant differences in the justification for the use of force by male and female officers.

Women Police: The Use of Force by and Against Female Officers | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

The findings suggest that female officers and same-gender female-female officer pairs generally use less force in police-citizen encounters than do their male counterparts. There was no evidence to support the proposition that citizens used less force against female officers compared to male officers. Overall, the findings support the original assertions that women and men perform policing duties differently and that hiring more women as police officers may help to reduce excessive force in some police departments.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Also (in my non expert understanding) in Scotland the police need corroboration to charge, ie the word of one copper is not enough, where it would be in the rest of the UK. Which puts your lone copper out in Altnaharra in an even weaker position. Probably not a lot of serious crimes happening out there though to be fair. IIRC there are some exceptions for minor things like driving without a seatbelt or something.

The not proven verdict and related reforms: consultation

This consultation seeks views on the three verdict system in Scottish criminal trials and if the not proven verdict were to be abolished, whether any accompanying reforms would be necessary to other aspects of the criminal justice system.

www.gov.scot

The requirement for corroboration has been a unique feature of criminal law in Scotland for hundreds of years. The basic principle of the corroboration rule is that an accused cannot be convicted of a crime, unless the essential facts of the crime are able to be established by evidence from at least two independent sources. The essential facts are:

1. that the crime was committed; and

2. that the accused was the person who committed the crime.

Evidence can take many forms, including direct evidence such as that of an eyewitness, admissions made by the accused, and evidence of facts and circumstances (known as circumstantial evidence). At its most simple, corroborated evidence may come from two eyewitnesses who can both say they saw the crime being committed and can identify the accused as the perpetrator. Alternatively, one strong, clear source of evidence may be corroborated by evidence of facts and circumstances pointing to the guilt of the accused, such as a witness who saw the accused running from the scene of the crime, at the relevant time, holding a weapon that matches the relevant description.

You're right.

Corroboration in Scots law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Prosecutors hate the principal of Corroboration. Defence lawyers love it so much they want to have it's babies.

 

[Koro_11]

So just have standards then, like I said. If that means 1% of police are women vs the much higher % it is now, fine.

Of course, again the issue then is what do you do when you simply aren't getting enough applicants that meet those standards? Just have less cops? Or lower the standards? You can't magically make a bunch of guys built like Tom Aspinall with the correct temperament and attitude decide to apply to police departments.

Like...how many cops do you know? I have numerous friends that are cops, and 2 in federal LE. Every one of them would prefer a woman as a partner who maybe isn't physically as strong, but who can keep her cool in stressful situations. I've heard enough stories about them working with meatheads that unnecessarily escalate situations that I'll defer to them. And they've also worked with women who were basket cases and shouldn't have been in LE, that's also absolutely true.

Which again means that the point is that you need to look at LE holistically. You have a smaller, physically weaker woman officer? Pair her with a partner that's more than physically capable. You have a gung ho meathead with a chip on his shoulder that needs to be reigned in, pair him with a senior officer that knows how to keep things calm. Don't send either out on their own.

There are better answers than what you're proposing.

Fair enough, you make a lot of good points, and I will concede that not having enough officers would most likely be a problem if women were actually held to the same physical standards as men.

That said, in an ideal world, more fit and capable men would want to be cops, and women would go into other professions where they would be more useful and more suited for. Maybe raise the incentives, raise the bar for what it takes to become a police officer, but also raise their pay so more good men would be lining up to be cops.

 

[Jesus X]

I don't think she is incompetent because she is a woman she is just incompetent in general. she had her finger on the trigger when she reached into his holster. I lol'd when the male cop told the female cop to PUT THE GUN DOWN . That dude is going to sue the pants off that department.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

Why did he have it tucked in his pants with one in the chamber and the safety off?

 

[mkess101]

Fair enough, you make a lot of good points, and I will concede that not having enough officers would most likely be a problem if women were actually held to the same physical standards as men.

That said, in an ideal world, more fit and capable men would want to be cops, and women would go into other professions where they would be more useful and more suited for. Maybe raise the incentives, raise the bar for what it takes to become a police officer, but also raise their pay so more good men would be lining up to be cops.

I think you're naturally going to have more men drawn to LE in general. Lack of desire to be a cop these days is true of both sexes. Who wants to be demonized and seen as the problem as opposed to someone trying to help?

I don't think anyone should take issue with anyone-regardless of sex-trying to have the career they want. People should take issue with quotas and the lowering of objective standards to meet said quotas. Don't discourage women from careers in LE. But don't try to cram them in either in the name of "diversity".

 

[nhbbear]

We still run solo units and most of us hate it. Nearly all calls are 2 Officer calls. It’s absolutely safer to have 2 officers per car.

And yeah, I’ll take many of the females over the knuckle dragger looking to fight everyone. Way more chance to get hurt or sued/charged with the knuckle dragger..

We were the last department to have a two officer mandate law. The city tried and tried to repeal the law but the voters voted against it every time, so the city just simply did away with it and we lost the court case somehow. It wasn’t about working alone. I was a supervisor and already did work alone and preferred it, but we knew they would cut the department and they did through attrition.

 

[nhbbear]

There are 7 full time cops in the suburb I live in. 5 dudes, 2 women. 3 of the 5 guys are overweight, 1 probably qualifies as obese. To be fair, one of them is older so maybe was fit when he started out. The two women are both fit, although the one I don't know well is just skinny really so likely is physically weak.

I have 2 buddies that are cops in the dept for the bigger city near us which is a way bigger dept obviously and it's rife with out of shape guys. (To be fair, out of shape women too). Yes of course there are fit people too. Even my buddy that's a fed said the Bureau lowered its fitness standards since he joined because they were not getting enough people (men and women) who were passing.

I'd imagine it's getting harder to recruit fit, smart people to be cops these days given the way police are demonized but that's a different discussion. The reality is what I said before: departments need to hire and be run holistically. Don't send a 5'5" 120 lb women out solo. Hell don't send 2 together. Match them up with a big fit dude. Same way you don't send a young cop with a more aggressive demeanor out solo or with another hothead. You send them out with a vet, or someone known to be able to calm situations down.

All this talk of fit cops has me thinking



I was always pretty fit(strength wise, I can’t run for shit) and I was disgusted by fat cops. I just can’t abide them.

 

[Mack Yancy]

So your argument is that women are just as qualified to be police officers as men? Is that what you're going with?

You goalpost shifting in real time is hilarious. You got zero likes on that comeback.

@Scerpi help him out, he's getting embarrassed again.

 

[Mack Yancy]

It'd probably take 15-20 female cops to physically stop me if they could even do it. I don't think they can. They would need to shoot me. I'm 6ft4 about 230lbs. Good shape. I could lay them out left and right.

I wouldn't even need to fight.. I could easily dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge my way through all of them to get away. Juke and jive.. They got no hope. They'd be at my mercy.

I didn't think I'd see someone doing the sherdog meme unironically.

You should have said you had a 9 inch cock too.

 

[sanguinius]

Would you comply if the cop or cops were giving you unlawful commands?

/

https://digitalcommons.jsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1065&context=etds_theses

The study concluded that women and men practice policing differently, and that recruiting more females could help reduce excessive force...

Researchers in the field studying use of force in policing claim that female officers produced a neutral policing style that is more sufficient for de-escalating violent situations. Studies revealed that female police officers are less likely to use confrontation than male officers...

Some research suggests that the mere presence of a female officer being called to a scene with the potential for the use of force decreases the chances of a forced altercation...

Studies have concluded that female officers practice less confrontational policing and write fewer citations. Also, studies have stated that female officers do not receive as many complaints as male police officers. Overall, departments with a higher female law enforcement population received fewer complaints from the public in 2016. An additional benefit of having more female officers in a department is that these officers often display more effective communication skills than their male counterparts. Utilizing effective communication skills has proven to de-escalate violent situations thatotherwise could have resulted in the use of force. Wright and Headley (2020) found that female officers use more excessive force against the opposite sex compared to male officers.

The present study was unable to find any statistically significant differences in the justification for the use of force by male and female officers.

Women Police: The Use of Force by and Against Female Officers | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

The findings suggest that female officers and same-gender female-female officer pairs generally use less force in police-citizen encounters than do their male counterparts. There was no evidence to support the proposition that citizens used less force against female officers compared to male officers. Overall, the findings support the original assertions that women and men perform policing duties differently and that hiring more women as police officers may help to reduce excessive force in some police departments.

Less complaints because corpses don’t talk. That study is ridiculous.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

I'm speaking about this from a UK perspective, where the vast majority of police officers do not carry firearms.

Women can and do perform with distinction as Detectives, especially when investigating crimes where sexual abuse is a factor. Women who have been assaulted or raped can find it much easier to talk to a female copper than a man. That's just human nature.

As I said, most UK police do not carry guns. Those that do are part of specialist units like Armed Response Vehicles. The selection and training for these units are tough, and women can and do pass the necessary tests to serve with them. In 2013, two Muslim terrorists knifed Lee Rigby, a soldier, to death. They then stood around waiting for armed police, obviously intending to commit suicide by cop.

When the ARV arrived, the shit-bags charged them while holding a meat cleaver and knives. One of the AR officers was a woman, and along with her colleague shot the bastards, but non-fatally. So instead of taking the Magic Carpet Ride to the 72 Virgins, they're doing Life sentences. One has a Whole Life Tariff and the other is doing a minimum of 45 years. So the only sex they're getting involves dropping soap in the shower.

Female officers who are unarmed apart from a baton and spray are obviously at a disadvantage when dealing with violent criminals. But UK police are trying to increase the number of officers, both male and female, who are Taser trained, which should off-set that to a certain degree.

TL/DR: not every cop has to be Dirty Harry, Judge Dredd. Gene Hunt or Jack Reacher.

I think TS is overestimating how often cops have to get physical in general. Most cops I know have barely ever had to get physical and when they do they have to complete a significant amount of paperwork to justify why they did.

 

[KnightTemplar]

I think TS is overestimating how often cops have to get physical in general. Most cops I know have barely ever had to get physical and when they do they have to complete a significant amount of paperwork to justify why they did.

The last thing most coppers want to do is roll around the pavement with someone they are trying to arrest. There's a good chance of being injured. Or injuring the perp, in which case they could be investigated for excessive force. And that could lead to anything from disciplinary hearings all the way up to criminal charges.

I train with some coppers, who are more than capable of getting physical. But it's a last resort. Most would rather deescalate the situation. This is, actually, one part of policing where the traditional, shaven-headed, knuckle-dragging Street Monster has an advantage over his female colleagues, as he's so intimidating most criminals will just give up. That doesn't mean to say women can't be effective police officers, of course.

I would question the wisdom of sending female officers out on their own, but I don't think sending male coppers out solo is a good idea either. A good female copper paired with a good male colleague shouldn't be a problem, though.

Quality trumps gender. There are, sadly, plenty of male coppers who could barely make the grade as lollypop men(crossing guards for our Colonial friends )

 

[Hellowhosthat]

The last thing most coppers want to do is roll around the pavement with someone they are trying to arrest. There's a good chance of being injured. Or injuring the perp, in which case they could be investigated for excessive force. And that could lead to anything from disciplinary hearings all the way up to criminal charges.

I train with some coppers, who are more than capable of getting physical. But it's a last resort. Most would rather deescalate the situation. This is, actually, one part of policing where the traditional, shaven-headed, knuckle-dragging Street Monster has an advantage over his female colleagues, as he's so intimidating most criminals will just give up. That doesn't mean to say women can't be effective police officers, of course.

I would question the wisdom of sending female officers out on their own, but I don't think sending male coppers out solo is a good idea either. A good female copper paired with a good male colleague shouldn't be a problem, though.

Quality trumps gender. There are, sadly, plenty of male coppers who could barely make the grade as lollypop men(crossing guards for our Colonial friends )

Yep, I train with a few coppers as well and some of them are beasts on the mat but have never had to use their BJJ as part of their job.

With regards to the knuckle dragging I think that works both ways. I've noticed with security guards at work that there's actually more issues when we have a younger male one rather than a female one or an older male one. I think the criminal is sometimes more likely to take a pop at someone they think can take it for whatever reason.

Seen it a lot round town too, I think often the big intimating bouncers are often the ones who have to get physical whereas the women are often able to get people to leave by just asking them to.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Yep, I train with a few coppers as well and some of them are beasts on the mat but have never had to use their BJJ as part of their job.

With regards to the knuckle dragging I think that works both ways. I've noticed with security guards at work that there's actually more issues when we have a younger male one rather than a female one or an older male one. I think the criminal is sometimes more likely to take a pop at someone they think can take it for whatever reason.

Seen it a lot round town too, I think often the big intimating bouncers are often the ones who have to get physical whereas the women are often able to get people to leave by just asking them to.

I've actually seen the reverse when it comes to doormen. The bigger, uglier guys have to fight less. The smaller blokes have to prove themselves over and over again. Which I find hilarious; if there's one person you don't want to pick a fight with, it's a doorman who's being doing the job for a while. They are battle-hardened and know every dirty trick in the book.

Regarding coppers using BJJ: one copper I've rolled with said he would only use an RNC if his life or someone else's was in immediate danger. Police regard the RNC as being one step down from the Death Touch; he said he get in less trouble for hitting a violent criminal with his baton than choking them out.

 

[cooks1]

Would you comply if the cop or cops were giving you unlawful commands?

/

https://digitalcommons.jsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1065&context=etds_theses

The study concluded that women and men practice policing differently, and that recruiting more females could help reduce excessive force...

Researchers in the field studying use of force in policing claim that female officers produced a neutral policing style that is more sufficient for de-escalating violent situations. Studies revealed that female police officers are less likely to use confrontation than male officers...

Some research suggests that the mere presence of a female officer being called to a scene with the potential for the use of force decreases the chances of a forced altercation...

Studies have concluded that female officers practice less confrontational policing and write fewer citations. Also, studies have stated that female officers do not receive as many complaints as male police officers. Overall, departments with a higher female law enforcement population received fewer complaints from the public in 2016. An additional benefit of having more female officers in a department is that these officers often display more effective communication skills than their male counterparts. Utilizing effective communication skills has proven to de-escalate violent situations thatotherwise could have resulted in the use of force. Wright and Headley (2020) found that female officers use more excessive force against the opposite sex compared to male officers.

The present study was unable to find any statistically significant differences in the justification for the use of force by male and female officers.

Women Police: The Use of Force by and Against Female Officers | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

The findings suggest that female officers and same-gender female-female officer pairs generally use less force in police-citizen encounters than do their male counterparts. There was no evidence to support the proposition that citizens used less force against female officers compared to male officers. Overall, the findings support the original assertions that women and men perform policing duties differently and that hiring more women as police officers may help to reduce excessive force in some police departments.

I'd most likely comply to a command I felt was unlawful unless it was to hurt someone else. It's not really our job to assess in real time whether a PO's command is lawful, and make compliance decisions based on that assessment. We should comply and use the mechanisms we have to seek redress if the command was not lawful. We've seen a lot of people hurt and killed for not following unlawful commands. In many cases even after they started complying, because now someones blood was up.

You don't have to convince me about women. I wouldn't scream if there were more female PO's. But we need to be careful not to fixate on the ratio. We simply need to do identify the optimal traits. And hire those with the optimal traits, man or woman, without preoccupation about how many are men and women. And there does have to be a balance of skills. It does not matter how good at de-escalating you are if you are completely helpless when things escalate.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

You goalpost shifting in real time is hilarious. You got zero likes on that comeback.

@Scerpi help him out, he's getting embarrassed again.

You have less than 4000 likes on your entire account

 

[650lb Sumo]

Yep, I train with a few coppers as well and some of them are beasts on the mat but have never had to use their BJJ as part of their job.

With regards to the knuckle dragging I think that works both ways. I've noticed with security guards at work that there's actually more issues when we have a younger male one rather than a female one or an older male one. I think the criminal is sometimes more likely to take a pop at someone they think can take it for whatever reason.

Seen it a lot round town too, I think often the big intimating bouncers are often the ones who have to get physical whereas the women are often able to get people to leave by just asking them to.

I've actually seen the reverse when it comes to doormen. The bigger, uglier guys have to fight less. The smaller blokes have to prove themselves over and over again. Which I find hilarious; if there's one person you don't want to pick a fight with, it's a doorman who's being doing the job for a while. They are battle-hardened and know every dirty trick in the book.

Regarding coppers using BJJ: one copper I've rolled with said he would only use an RNC if his life or someone else's was in immediate danger. Police regard the RNC as being one step down from the Death Touch; he said he get in less trouble for hitting a violent criminal with his baton than choking them out.

Young males are the great majority of victims of serious violent crimes. I suspect they're the majority of victims of not serious as well.

Wrt who gets picked on more, physically weak or physically strong people, I saw a graph once, how good you are on the x axis and how much people mock you on the y, and it was like a U. Like people who are really bad and really good at something get the most shit talked on them, and mediocre people the least. I couldn't find it now, but I think the situation might be like that in this context. If you appear weak the bottom-feeders will be wanting to have a go, and if you appear strong and a victory over you, or even a competitive scrap with you would gain someone respect and reputation, the top-feeders will be wanting a crack.

Like was touched on above though I suspect an aggressive woman might be more likely to get physical with a female cop/security guard etc., and be calmer with a male one. Like if you reverse the sexes the comply/resist probabilities also get reversed.

The best security personnel have very polished social skills, and are adept at solving problems on a psychological/verbal level.