Defense Soap.. worth it?

[codemonkey76]

has your hypothesis "killing some bacteria but not all, helps your own flora overcome invasive pathological species" been tested?, under what conditions and controls?

if it was probiotic, your soap would include live bacteria that are non-pathological that can colonize your skin.

 

[codemonkey76]

Maybe someone should develop a 2-stage product... Napalm all fora in the shower, and then apply probiotic lotion after the shower to re-populate flora?

 

[Defense Soap]

codemonkey76

I agree with your comment on testimonials. I tossed that in on the end merely because we are discussing this on an open forum where people listen to what other people have to say. I think testimonials carry as much weight here as someone posting their opinion.

When I sit down if front of the FDA the testimonial folder stays in the brief case.

Guy
Defense Soap

 

[Defense Soap]

codemonkey76

I was being slightly facetious with the probiotic comment. To answer your question "has your hypothesis "killing some bacteria but not all, helps your own flora overcome invasive pathological species" been tested?" This is the scientific function of flora. I read many articles on skin flora when developing Defense. I am certain that I have them saved somewhere on my main computer. If you email me at [email protected] I will be more then happy to share them with you. If you want, do a google search on the function of flora. It is very dry reading but you will find a ton of clinical studies supporting this.

In a nutshell bacteria lives on the surface of your skin and competes for space. It competes primarily against invading bacteria and fungus. Toss a virus in there from time to time but bacteria tends to lose this battle. Fungus doesn't fair well against bacteria. Bacteria kills fungus by actually eating it (and here is the weird part) it also kills fungus by passing gas. Take the bacteria off of the skin by using a strong antibacterial soap and you just created an environment for fungus (ringworm) to thrive.

It is important to note that you can never wipe out all of the bacteria on your skin. This means that you would be sterile which is impossible on a porous surface. We simply weaken our flora which is enough to invite infection.

I have read articles where probiotic diets are supposed to boost your skin flora. To be very honest with you I do not understand how this works. I have a hard time with this concept. There are supplement companies that sell probiotics boasting this claim. We looked into the capsules ourselves but I just couldn't believe in it enough to put my name or the Defense brand on it.

Maybe you could take a yogurt bath.

Guy
Defense Soap

 

[Defense Soap]

BJ@LW&WW

What is sounds like you are experiencing to me is a form of folliculitis. This is a staph infection that forms around a damaged hair follicle. The follicles on your knees are damaged from the mat. Bacteria is then ground into them creating an environment suitable for infection. This is also found on the knees by guys who wear kneepads. If you wear kneepads be certain to wash them daily. If they stink they are housing bacteria.

Guy
Defense Soap

 

[PayPerView]

Eucalyptus oil has some evidence behind it for fighting off staph. So in that regard, Defense Soap has its uses. I personally use Dr. Bronners as it is easy to find and relatively cheap.

 

[Defense Soap]

MyBodyHurts

I actually had to place your post on a word document and go through it line by line to make sure I did not leave anything out.

Our price for a 5 pack is $27.50 not $39.46. Someone else may be selling it for this amount but it surely is not us. I find it hard to believe anyone would buy at that price when at least 12 people sell Defense on Amazon including Amazon itself for way less. For the record Defense is the highest quality bar with pharmaceutical grade oils and made in America by pround American’s. Nothing cheap here.

Our clinical study that is posted was done when we started our company. It is an invitro study that had positive results against the bacteria and fungus that we tested. Why would we do the same study again…our soap hasn’t changed one bit.

As for Pet Labs……you are boarding slander. They absolutely do no animal testing whatsoever and your comment can be construed as damaging to them. Dr. Bell is a leading microbiologist that provides service to customers such as the Cleveland Zoo and the American Kennel Association. He protects animals form microorganisms. He would be highly offended by your post. I know Dr. Bell from when I wrestled in college. He had a son that wrestled the same time my son wrestled as well. He understands the application of Defense Soap and was able to test it accordingly. He too was skeptical when I asked him to do the testing. When he was finished he asked to buy into the company. The fact that there was no growth after 7-10 days helps my case. I do not see where you feel this is a negative. If we tested it for 4 hours then of course we would not see growth. We incubated these dishes for a full 7-10 days without growth. And yes I did pay Dr. Bell to do the study. That is how it works. I did not sit around and wait for someone to do a study on a soap that didn’t exist yet. You create a formula and have it tested. If you find fault in our testing a simple google search on tea tree oil antifungal properties should shed some light on it for you.

What should I say to the dermatologists that do support the use of Defense Soap…..they are fools that have been tricked by simplistic research…or to the cancer clinics who use us as an healthy alternative for a surgical scrub. Are they fools as well. Should the members of the forum value your opinion over theirs? Can you share your credentials with us that would rival at least a dozen doctors?

As mentioned in an earlier post that my marketing department must be doing a great job if some “very highly regarded dermatologist” even heard of Defense Soap. Can you share his name with me so that I may follow up or is he simply “very highly regarded dermatologist”. I understand privacy so please, if you will, send his info to me at [email protected]. If there is something to be learned from him I am all ears.

If you visited our site or read any of our posts here you would know that we preach education and a proper hygiene regime. We offer free samples and all the education on the topic we can dig up. If our soap is a good fit for you and you like our business plan we hope to gain you as a customer. I feel you have totally missed our intention.

And as for other Tea Tree Oil soaps, I suggest you look for consistency and concentration levels. By no means are they all the same and quite frankly you will get what you pay for. But don’t forget the Eucalyptus Oil which adds a nice additional level of protection.

I realize this is an open forum and BS is slung around here all day. I thank you again for calling BS and allowing me to discuss this with you. I can assure you that the Defense Soap brand and I are here for the health of the combat athlete. The company was born out of necessity. By no means are we a profit driven company looking to cash in on your hard work and sweat. You have my word that we are right here in the trenches with you.

I look forward to your reply.

Guy
Defense Soap

 

[Defense Soap]

I think I covered them all. If I missed your question please hit me up again with it. If I offended anyone I again apologize. I look forward to round 2 in the morning.

Guy
Defense Soap

 

[Nozza]

So what is the evidence from controlled trials on humans that your soap prevents or treats staph any better than using normal soap or say tea tree oil soap?

 

[Defense Soap]

Nozza,

There is no way to do the testing. You would have to purposely infect a group with staph. This is unethical and cannot and should not ever be done. Could you imagine being in the group that received the placebo soap. That would be horrible to say the least.

Guy
Defense Soap

 

[Nozza]

Nozza,

There is no way to do the testing. You would have to purposely infect a group with staph. This is unethical and cannot and should not ever be done. Could you imagine being in the group that received the placebo soap. That would be horrible to say the least.

Guy
Defense Soap

So how can you be sure it works? Millions upon millions of in vitro trials turn out to be practically useless in vivo.

Forgetting staph for a minute. What controlled trials have been done on humans at all?

I don't think you really answered the question about ""killing some bacteria but not all, helps your own flora overcome invasive pathological species" been tested?, under what conditions and controls?" - Your soap contain antibacterials and let's assume these work on skin at the concentrations and timings found in showering. Then obviously it will kill some bacteria. But are these the bad bacteria or the helpful bacteria? What testing has been done into this? If it just kills some of ALL the species of bacteria then how does this help the native flora overcome the pathological ones and how has this been shown to be true?

One last question if you don't mind humouring me: what % of tea tree oil is in the soap?

 

[Defense Soap]

Nozza,

Let's take soap out completely. We are now left with our flora and an invading microbe. The battle begins. If flora wins no infection. If microbe wins then infection.
Now let's introduce antibacterial soap. If microbe is bacterial let's assume flora plus antibacterial soap wins. If microbe is fungal we have an antibacterial soap killing bacteria, our flora, leaving behind fungus to win. If we introduce a soap with antifungal and antibacterial ingredients both bacteria and fungus have a battle on their hands. I am not sure if this is what you were looking for or not. These is no way to select the type of bacteria you are going to kill with a soap such as mine. You are going to kill both good and bad bacteria. Hopefully we killed the invading bacteria and if we didn't hopefully our remaining flora does the job. There are countless factors at work here. Peoples floras are all different. What is harmful to you may not be harmful to me. We simply took ingredients that were proven invitro to kill as many infections as we could safely.

To come right out and say that invitro is as dependable as invivo would be dishonest on my part but this doesn't mean that in this instance that it isn't. We just cannot say it is or even prove that it is. Back in the old days they would round up the criminals and bums and do live testing on them. We simply cannot do this any more. Our soap is not a cure it is a preventative. How do you do an invivo test on a preventative product with out putting subjects at risk.

Did I answer it or am I still off base with your question. I am sorry it is 4:40am and I may not be on top of my game.

Guy
Defense Soap

 

[Nozza]

Thanks for your candid replies.

I really can see how it might work logically, but then I can also make an argument that it could make things worse. E.g. is it as simple as soap + flora wins? Or could it be that microbe + less flora (killed by soap) wins?

I'd guess that you're probably right in that there is going to be a lot less pathological microbes than native ones and a certain critical mass is required to establish an infection and this mass isn't reached if the whole flora level (invasive and native) is reduced by soap and then the native flora regrows as it's suited to its environment. But this is a guess. I know some bacteria require a substantially longer time to be killed than others and if staph is one of those then the soap could make it worse. It's also possible that treating your body frequently and regularly with antimicrobials and antifungals could detrimentally affect your native flora leaving you more open to infections. I personally don't know and I'm not sure anyone really does do they?

The research I've found shows that tea tree oil kills bacteria, including MRSA, in vitro. I've also found research that shows it might also be useful in treating real staph infections on real people. I believe it is. However those tests have been done using 5% - 20% solutions which were applied locally, covered, left on the wounds and reapplied constantly for many days. The tests mention kill times from 10 minutes to much longer. So it looks like tea tree oil is potentially useful in treating a local infection at adequate concentrations for adequate time periods. E.g. dabbing 20% TTO solution on a staph wound several times a day might work as well as an antibiotic cream.

But the evidence seems to me, to being into doubt the effectiveness of soaps which contain less than 5% tea tree oil in the bottle or bar to begin with, which are then watered down significantly as you lather up with water and are only on the body for a few minutes before being washed off.

There's a lot of if's and probably's here. Which I imagine is why the FDA don't let you come out and say that it definitely protects or treats but rather allows phrases like " MMA, Wrestlers, Judo, and most combat athletes consider Defense Soap to be the best soap to help their antifungal, anti-Ringworm, anti-Jock-Itch strategy."

I hope that future research appears showing it's practical value to back up the anecdotal and inferred evidence.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

You don't have to deliberately infect people with staph to do a meaningful trial. Just find a bunch of people who don't currently use the product, randomise as to whether they receive some or not and do follow-up a few months later to see if they have diagnosed infections. You could make placebo bars that are formulated like "normal" soap if you wanted to be extra convincing.

 

[jr jr]

Can't say I use this soap regularly. I have where it is stocked in the gym shower, Marcellos. I can say I appreciate any company willing to come to the interweb and participate in open debate. Well done.

 

[flej]

I'm a fan of defense soap, I'm using tea tree oil soap after training anyway and their product doesn't dry me out the way other soaps have.
I got a free sample a few weeks ago and I need to reorder actually, get the liquid (it has coconut oil in it)
It might be a few bucks more than going to the vitamin shoppe and getting the stuff they sell, but I'm ok with that and supporting a grass root company by grapplers for grapplers.

 

[nodferatu]

I'm doing a study/review on the different types of soap for combat athletes to see how each one is and their differences. So far I've done Gi Soap, Arm Bar Soap company (I'm writing it up now), and I'm in the process of Defense soap right now.

 

[Denoginizer]

I can say I appreciate any company willing to come to the interweb and participate in open debate. Well done.

The attitude and willingness to discuss these questions is really refreshing from Guy and Defence Soap. I wish we had this same level-headed response from the president of the multi-million dollar UFC...

 

[akarpenter]

There are a lot of factors at play when looking at products like this. Like guy said, it's preventative, not a cure. Even with how much less harmful the ingredients are over antibacterial, it prob would not be a good ideas to coat your body with a 20% solution after every training. And like guy mentioned, if you are someone that has no skin problems, then there are no results to be seen anyway. Also, I don't know enough about the ins and outs of these issues with the FDA, but I so believe in homeopathic remedies, and stop and think about the fact the no alternative medical treatments are FDA approved. Even everyday vitamins that most of us take, and take for granted that its common knowledge they are good for you, have that little cross with the FDA warning that these claims are not supported by the FDA. Just food for thought on the subject... Also, I too have problems with folliculitus, and defense soap and oil have been a huge help. But I already used tea tree oil anyway

 

[crash90]

@DefenseSoap

I am curious about your soap after reading your posts here. Could you send me a sample? I have contracted staph once before and am trying out different soaps to my hygiene program in the hopes of preventing staph.