Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 34] - Horion´s Choice @ UFC 1 ...

I wonder how many fights (dojo fights/Gracie challenge) Royce had before UFC 1. For the family to be so confident in a young skinny 176 lbs man like that. Of course he has been training all his life, and I have seen him fight Delucia in the dojo, and I have seen other Gracies fight in the dojos too. I would think they must have seen Royce strangle a few Heavyweights in full contact fights (not just BJJ) to be so confident to put him on live pay per view against such monsters.

Shamrock was a monster and knew submissions.

Rosier was fucking huge. Way bigger than Royce. Heavyweight kickboxer could have KTFO Royce maybe. Gordeau had even better striking (or maybe Kevin was just tired from his earlier war), but Gordeau was easier for Royce to take down. Royce might have had more of a problem taking Rosier down. Of course I would still favor Royce with his cardio and lifetime of subs but you never know what could happen if the brackets got shifted around at UFC 1.

Teila Tuli would have given Royce hell for about a minute but I think Royce would have taken his back eventually.
 
Typrune Goatley said:
I wonder how many fights (dojo fights/Gracie challenge) Royce had before UFC 1. For the family to be so confident in a young skinny 176 lbs man like that. Of course he has been training all his life, and I have seen him fight Delucia in the dojo, and I have seen other Gracies fight in the dojos too. I would think they must have seen Royce strangle a few Heavyweights in full contact fights (not just BJJ) to be so confident to put him on live pay per view against such monsters.

Shamrock was a monster and knew submissions.

Rosier was fucking huge. Way bigger than Royce. Heavyweight kickboxer could have KTFO Royce maybe. Gordeau had even better striking (or maybe Kevin was just tired from his earlier war), but Gordeau was easier for Royce to take down. Royce might have had more of a problem taking Rosier down. Of course I would still favor Royce with his cardio and lifetime of subs but you never know what could happen if the brackets got shifted around at UFC 1.

Teila Tuli would have given Royce hell for about a minute but I think Royce would have taken his back eventually.
Click to expand...
That was indeed a risky, puzzlin´,arguably unnecessary bet... jus´like Hickson vs Rei Zulu 1... Perhaps some arrogance behind it...

A few months b4 UFC1, Horion watched Hoyce rollin´ with Nick Baturin [sambo], who also rolled with Hickson by the way..
Seems it was a good contest, accordin´ to Nick...had him in tight heel hools, but Hoyce wouldnt tap...
For sure, it must have given Horion more confidence in Hoyce...
 
Nice breakdown and thread. I think your series is great.
But your conclusion here is wrong.
It wasn't about controlling Rickson.

Rickson was THE man in the world of GJJ and BJJ. The risk was if he lost, the whole system and marketing would've been damaged. He was the backup, it only made sense for Royce to be the one to enter and take the acclaim as the skinny guy if he won, and if he lost they could always say he was just mediocre and enter Rickson after that.

In martial arts when there's an unknown variable you never put your 'top guy' out there at the beginning, you send in your second and see how he does then go from there.
 
TheMaster said:
Nice breakdown and thread. I think your series is great.
But your conclusion here is wrong.
It wasn't about controlling Rickson.

Rickson was THE man in the world of GJJ and BJJ. The risk was if he lost, the whole system and marketing would've been damaged. He was the backup, it only made sense for Royce to be the one to enter and take the acclaim as the skinny guy if he won, and if he lost they could always say he was just mediocre and enter Rickson after that.

In martial arts when there's an unknown variable you never put your 'top guy' out there at the beginning, you send in your second and see how he does then go from there.
Click to expand...
Well, technically, they did it in 1974:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-ufc-1-was-really-born-41.3964531/

In that preview of UFC 1, they sent their [potential] top guy, Holls. Holls was a rookie, then, but Horion too, & Helio was gettin´old, couldnt realistically deal with the modern times alone.

@ UFC 1, Horion was more experienced & had a better idea of how to run things.

Besides, the conclusion Im defendin´here was confirmed by:
> Art Davie in his book
> BJM :

gono btw said:
Checkin´ BJM´s version:

Click to expand...
 
gono btw said:
Well, technically, they did it in 1974:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-ufc-1-was-really-born-41.3964531/

In that preview of UFC 1, they sent their [potential] top guy, Holls. Holls was a rookie, then, but Horion too, & Helio was gettin´old, couldnt realistically deal with the modern times alone.

@ UFC 1, Horion was more experienced & had a better idea of how to run things.

Besides, the conclusion Im defendin´here was confirmed by:
> Art Davie in his book
> BJM :
Click to expand...

Regardless of BJM's story it is obvious Rickson was the golden goose. You can tell from how he was protected even in Pride when Royce had proved effectiveness of BJJ they would only let Rickson fight Takada twice no one more dangerous then that (especially after Takada landed that knee).

Rickson was basically the definition of BJJ during that era. Makes no sense risking the rep of the entire system for a stray KO punch, they would've been idiots to have entered him.

Still, Royce did good enough so validated their strategy.
 
Wow most thought out comprehensive post I've ever seen on Sherdog.

Bravo!!D-VoMkCXoAAkd3i.jpeg D-VoMkCXoAAkd3i.jpeg
 
champ145 said:
Wow most thought out comprehensive post I've ever seen on Sherdog.

Bravo!!View attachment 776051 View attachment 776051
Click to expand...

chow2.gif

TheMaster said:
Regardless of BJM's story it is obvious Rickson was the golden goose. You can tell from how he was protected even in Pride when Royce had proved effectiveness of BJJ they would only let Rickson fight Takada twice no one more dangerous then that (especially after Takada landed that knee).

Rickson was basically the definition of BJJ during that era. Makes no sense risking the rep of the entire system for a stray KO punch, they would've been idiots to have entered him.

Still, Royce did good enough so validated their strategy.
Click to expand...
hmmm... yeah, but by the time he reached Pride, he was no longer 'controlled' by Horion, tho (rupture happened at the end of UFC 1, then 2nd rupture with Helio during UFC 'negociations') ...
 
TheMaster said:
Nice breakdown and thread. I think your series is great.
But your conclusion here is wrong.
It wasn't about controlling Rickson.

Rickson was THE man in the world of GJJ and BJJ. The risk was if he lost, the whole system and marketing would've been damaged. He was the backup, it only made sense for Royce to be the one to enter and take the acclaim as the skinny guy if he won, and if he lost they could always say he was just mediocre and enter Rickson after that.

In martial arts when there's an unknown variable you never put your 'top guy' out there at the beginning, you send in your second and see how he does then go from there.
Click to expand...

Sounds like when Masahiko Kimura let his top dog Kato fight Helio Gracie first. It was after Kato lost is when Kimura stepped in and crushed Helio.
 
TheBulge said:
Sounds like when Masahiko Kimura let his top dog Kato fight Helio Gracie first. It was after Kato lost is when Kimura stepped in and crushed Helio.
Click to expand...
Yup, this is the way it has always been. Too much pride and lineage at stake to just go out there put the number one guy in.
In fact, Ricksons rep was so big that ironically he was never really allowed to test himself and was protected fighting guys like Takada and retired early. Royce and Renzo had much better resumes but both also got smashed at certain times for competing in mma at a much higher level of opposition which could never have been allowed to happen with Rickson.
 
TheBulge said:
Sounds like when Masahiko Kimura let his top dog Kato fight Helio Gracie first. It was after Kato lost is when Kimura stepped in and crushed Helio.
Click to expand...
According to UFC 1, Helio never lost or his family. Are you saying they had false info in UFC 1? Who was behind the production team of the whole event and show?
 
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