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Warning: TLDR here.
Today : [US NHB Scene]
MYTH : Horion chose Hoyce @ UFC 1 because of his size.
Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:
Horion´s propaganda has always been that he chose Hoyce coz he was a "skinny, unassuming guy"...
Accordin´to him, that was the best way to prove that technique can defeat physical strength & size.
But was it really the case? What were his options then?
In terms of size, this was the situation for them Gracies @ UFC 1:
1- Hickson [WW/MW]
2- Hoyce [natural WW]
3- Helson [natural WW]
4- Horion [natural WW]
5- Henzo [LW/WW]
6- Hilion [LW/WW]
7- Hoyler [natural FW]
1/ HOYLER :
If Horion really wanted to promote GJJ & push his propaganda, then why not choose the [even] smaller Hoyler?
Hoyler was perhaps more technical, but was still a FW/LW...realistically.
Not that he would mind: Carlson even clashed with his traditional ol´school philosophy (he had an argument with him about it, when he challenged not only the best of his gym, but even the heaviest like Sperry).
In 1988, Hoyler had a fight with LW Eugenio Tadeu, behind closed doors.
Eugenio was reportedly @ 71Kg [156 lbs] & Hoyler @ 63Kg [139 lbs]
Then, transition to the international stage:
Consequently, that was quite a risky bet: one fight per night against a HW could be an option, but...3 fights @ OW?
Even against a [terrified &] completely clueless on the ground Sano, a few years later @ Pride 2:
It took him no less than 33mns (and a pretty bureaucratic, textbook BJJ...) to get it done.
2/ HILION :
One of the smallest Gracies, [LW/WW] Hilion never competed in Vale Tudo or MMA, was supposed to face LW Eugenio Tadeu behind closed doors, but Hoyler was finally chosen.
3/ HENZO :
A lil bit smaller than Hoyce, he was not really considered for UFC 1, even though he was @ the 1st BJJ vs MT/Luta Livre challenge in 1984 (b4 settlin´on Pinduka, Huas was supposed to fight against Helson, then Henzo, then Fred Bomba...)
Again, if we consider the nature of the relationships between Horion & Henzo through time:
... it appears pretty easy to acknowledge that Horion didnt trust him too.
4/ HELSON :
Helson was obviously past his physical prime @ UFC 1 (40 yrs old), but he was 'reputed' to be the 'meanest', always into street fights... Perfect choice for NHB UFC 1, right?
He was also a lil bit smaller than Hoyce:
Then, why was he overlooked?
The truth is... Helson was already bypassed in 1980 when Helio chose [the very young] Hickson over him to challenge Rei Zulu.
As Art Davie pointed out in his book [Is It Legal?] :
In other words, Horion didnt trust him.
5/ HORION :
Horion never competed in [official] Vale Tudo or MMA.
6/ HICKSON :
> Hickson started his career in Vale Tudo style vs Rei Zulu, in 1980.
Hickson claimed that: "Rei Zulu had 96 kg. [211.2 lbs.] I had 72 kg. [158.4 lbs.]..."
> 2nd fight with Rei Zulu in 1984:
Horion´s version: "Rei Zulu weighed 220, Hickson weighed 180."
Official weigh-in:
"Official weigh-in on Wednesday November 9. Hickson weighed 79 or 80 kgs. (173.8 or 176 lbs.) depending on the report. Zulu weighed 91.8 kg. (201.96 lbs.) ."
Then he slowly bulked up and became a MW in Japan:
Transition to the international stage, Japan:
Hoyce was taller than Hickson, but Hickson had a bigger frame.
Hence, the weight difference was around 9 lbs.
Now, if we consider the size difference @ UFC 1:
It is pretty obvious that Hoyce or Hickson as a 'marketing tool' for GJJ would have made no difference, for the very simple reason that they would have both been dwarfed by most of the competitors (except Art Jimmerson) (see their height/weight).
Indeed, UFC was mainly a HW affair...
Consequently, why was he bypassed this time?
Coz Horion couldnt control Hickson.
But...like in the Hickson vs Rei Zulu case, risky bet indeed: Hoyce was a complete rookie.
He had never even participated in BJJ tournaments b4, let alone been involved in street fights, as Helson later explained.
Indeed, it was a matter of influence inside the family.
Today : [US NHB Scene]
MYTH : Horion chose Hoyce @ UFC 1 because of his size.
Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
+:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-ufc-1-was-really-born-41.3964531/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-hoyce-became-world-lhw-champ-42.3972653/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
+:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-ufc-1-was-really-born-41.3964531/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-hoyce-became-world-lhw-champ-42.3972653/
Horion´s propaganda has always been that he chose Hoyce coz he was a "skinny, unassuming guy"...
https://revistatrip.uol.com.br/trip/rorion-gracie-jiu-jitsu-ufc-dieta-gracie
Q: "Por que você decidiu chamar o Royce para representar o jiu-jítsu se na época até o Rickson já estava nos Estados Unidos?"
[Why Hoyce?]
HORION: "Minha intenção com o evento era provar a superioridade do jiu-jítsu. Por isso escolhi o mais magrinho para competir. O Rickson é um lutador excepcional, mas parece um tanque de guerra, então as pessoas poderiam achar que ele ganharia por causa do tamanho. O Royce era fino, parecia um anjinho de branco. Todo mundo era muito maior que ele, mas ele entrou e deu um show."
> "My goal was to prove JJ`s superiority. That´s why I chose the thinnest for that competition.
Hickson is an outstandin´fighter, but he looks like a tank, therefore people could think that he would won because of his size. Hoyce was thinner, he looked like an angel in white (!). Everybody was bigger than him,
but he came in & it was a real show."
http://mmadebate.com.br/entrevista-com-a-lenda-rorion-gracie/
Q: "Porque você decidiu colocar o Royce no UFC, que era o menos experientes da família naquela ocasião e você já tinha nomes como Rickson, Renzo que já tinham boa experiência em combates de vale-tudo e até mesmo o aluno do Rickson, Marcelo Behring que vinha se destacando, porque o Royce foi sua escolha final para representar o BJJ da família?"
[= Why Hoyce?]
HORION: "Achei que o Royce, por ser mais leve, e mais franzino, seria um exemplo mais convincente da eficiência do nosso jiu-jitsu."
> "I thought that Hoyce, lighter and thinner, would be a more convincing example of our JJ´s efficiency"
Q: "Por que você decidiu chamar o Royce para representar o jiu-jítsu se na época até o Rickson já estava nos Estados Unidos?"
[Why Hoyce?]
HORION: "Minha intenção com o evento era provar a superioridade do jiu-jítsu. Por isso escolhi o mais magrinho para competir. O Rickson é um lutador excepcional, mas parece um tanque de guerra, então as pessoas poderiam achar que ele ganharia por causa do tamanho. O Royce era fino, parecia um anjinho de branco. Todo mundo era muito maior que ele, mas ele entrou e deu um show."
> "My goal was to prove JJ`s superiority. That´s why I chose the thinnest for that competition.
Hickson is an outstandin´fighter, but he looks like a tank, therefore people could think that he would won because of his size. Hoyce was thinner, he looked like an angel in white (!). Everybody was bigger than him,
but he came in & it was a real show."
http://mmadebate.com.br/entrevista-com-a-lenda-rorion-gracie/
Q: "Porque você decidiu colocar o Royce no UFC, que era o menos experientes da família naquela ocasião e você já tinha nomes como Rickson, Renzo que já tinham boa experiência em combates de vale-tudo e até mesmo o aluno do Rickson, Marcelo Behring que vinha se destacando, porque o Royce foi sua escolha final para representar o BJJ da família?"
[= Why Hoyce?]
HORION: "Achei que o Royce, por ser mais leve, e mais franzino, seria um exemplo mais convincente da eficiência do nosso jiu-jitsu."
> "I thought that Hoyce, lighter and thinner, would be a more convincing example of our JJ´s efficiency"
Accordin´to him, that was the best way to prove that technique can defeat physical strength & size.
But was it really the case? What were his options then?
In terms of size, this was the situation for them Gracies @ UFC 1:
1- Hickson [WW/MW]
2- Hoyce [natural WW]
3- Helson [natural WW]
4- Horion [natural WW]
5- Henzo [LW/WW]
6- Hilion [LW/WW]
7- Hoyler [natural FW]
1/ HOYLER :
If Horion really wanted to promote GJJ & push his propaganda, then why not choose the [even] smaller Hoyler?
Hoyler was perhaps more technical, but was still a FW/LW...realistically.
Not that he would mind: Carlson even clashed with his traditional ol´school philosophy (he had an argument with him about it, when he challenged not only the best of his gym, but even the heaviest like Sperry).
In 1988, Hoyler had a fight with LW Eugenio Tadeu, behind closed doors.
Eugenio was reportedly @ 71Kg [156 lbs] & Hoyler @ 63Kg [139 lbs]
Then, transition to the international stage:
Consequently, that was quite a risky bet: one fight per night against a HW could be an option, but...3 fights @ OW?
Even against a [terrified &] completely clueless on the ground Sano, a few years later @ Pride 2:
It took him no less than 33mns (and a pretty bureaucratic, textbook BJJ...) to get it done.
2/ HILION :
One of the smallest Gracies, [LW/WW] Hilion never competed in Vale Tudo or MMA, was supposed to face LW Eugenio Tadeu behind closed doors, but Hoyler was finally chosen.
3/ HENZO :
A lil bit smaller than Hoyce, he was not really considered for UFC 1, even though he was @ the 1st BJJ vs MT/Luta Livre challenge in 1984 (b4 settlin´on Pinduka, Huas was supposed to fight against Helson, then Henzo, then Fred Bomba...)
Again, if we consider the nature of the relationships between Horion & Henzo through time:
Spring 1998
This interview took place shortly before UFC 17:
Q: "How skillful is Renzo at Gracie Jiu-Jitsu?"
Horion: "Not as skillful as Royce."
This interview took place shortly before UFC 17:
Q: "How skillful is Renzo at Gracie Jiu-Jitsu?"
Horion: "Not as skillful as Royce."
http://thefightworkspodcast.com/2009/11/29/renzo-gracie/
"One thing I feel sorry about, is Rorion´s kids. They are very good kids, but their father feeds them nonsense. So, they could be unbelievable fighters, but they are going to end up as mediocre fighters, mediocre people. They are going to go through life as great businessmen. If I was them, I´d be selling self-help books, that´s what they should be doing. There is more money in that, instead of claiming that they are real fighters.
They are far from being real fighters. Far. Believe me. When they created a competition, when my cousin Rorion created a competition and created the rules, so his kids could win, and then tells that his kid is going to win, they couldnt even win that. Not even the pure jiu jitsu rule that he claims he created, which was nonsense rules. Next thing I see, his kids could win nothing. They were losing to guys on the second tier, like Marc Laimon, he was beating them up. Guys who could not even feature in a world championship! People who could never compete in an Abu Dhabi and do well!"
"One thing I feel sorry about, is Rorion´s kids. They are very good kids, but their father feeds them nonsense. So, they could be unbelievable fighters, but they are going to end up as mediocre fighters, mediocre people. They are going to go through life as great businessmen. If I was them, I´d be selling self-help books, that´s what they should be doing. There is more money in that, instead of claiming that they are real fighters.
They are far from being real fighters. Far. Believe me. When they created a competition, when my cousin Rorion created a competition and created the rules, so his kids could win, and then tells that his kid is going to win, they couldnt even win that. Not even the pure jiu jitsu rule that he claims he created, which was nonsense rules. Next thing I see, his kids could win nothing. They were losing to guys on the second tier, like Marc Laimon, he was beating them up. Guys who could not even feature in a world championship! People who could never compete in an Abu Dhabi and do well!"
... it appears pretty easy to acknowledge that Horion didnt trust him too.
4/ HELSON :
Helson was obviously past his physical prime @ UFC 1 (40 yrs old), but he was 'reputed' to be the 'meanest', always into street fights... Perfect choice for NHB UFC 1, right?
"I had only met Relson a few times, and I really knew him more by reputation. The talk around the academy was that while Rickson was the best fighter in the Gracie family, Relson was the meanest. If the shit went down for real, on the street or in a bar, Relson would fuck you up. "
Hoyce would prepare his fights with Hickson & Helson, and the latter was probably the one who instilled some 'roughness' into Hoyce´s game ['dirty' clinch & headbutts > Hoyce started his fight with Kimo with a black-eye due to a headbutt inflicted by Helson durin´ sparrin´...]
He was also a lil bit smaller than Hoyce:
Then, why was he overlooked?
The truth is... Helson was already bypassed in 1980 when Helio chose [the very young] Hickson over him to challenge Rei Zulu.
As Art Davie pointed out in his book [Is It Legal?] :
"Relson, [...], was the black hawk, unpredictable, dangerous and a bit of an outcast."
" One time Rorion had let it slip to me that Relson “likes to party,” but never said more on the subject. For whatever reason, Relson may have been a wild card in Rorion’s eyes who just couldn’t be risked as the
Gracie Jiu-Jitsu emissary to the world.
" One time Rorion had let it slip to me that Relson “likes to party,” but never said more on the subject. For whatever reason, Relson may have been a wild card in Rorion’s eyes who just couldn’t be risked as the
Gracie Jiu-Jitsu emissary to the world.
In other words, Horion didnt trust him.
It could actually have been more than mistrust: Art Davie revealed in his book that Helson told him about some really private shit about Horion... Not really the thing that one would tell to a 'stranger'...
Gono wont repeat it here, it´s indeed between Horion & his father.
Nuff´Said.
Gono wont repeat it here, it´s indeed between Horion & his father.
Nuff´Said.
5/ HORION :
Horion never competed in [official] Vale Tudo or MMA.
6/ HICKSON :
> Hickson started his career in Vale Tudo style vs Rei Zulu, in 1980.
Hickson claimed that: "Rei Zulu had 96 kg. [211.2 lbs.] I had 72 kg. [158.4 lbs.]..."
> 2nd fight with Rei Zulu in 1984:
Horion´s version: "Rei Zulu weighed 220, Hickson weighed 180."
Official weigh-in:
"Official weigh-in on Wednesday November 9. Hickson weighed 79 or 80 kgs. (173.8 or 176 lbs.) depending on the report. Zulu weighed 91.8 kg. (201.96 lbs.) ."
Then he slowly bulked up and became a MW in Japan:
Transition to the international stage, Japan:
Hoyce was taller than Hickson, but Hickson had a bigger frame.
Hence, the weight difference was around 9 lbs.
Now, if we consider the size difference @ UFC 1:
It is pretty obvious that Hoyce or Hickson as a 'marketing tool' for GJJ would have made no difference, for the very simple reason that they would have both been dwarfed by most of the competitors (except Art Jimmerson) (see their height/weight).
Indeed, UFC was mainly a HW affair...
Consequently, why was he bypassed this time?
Coz Horion couldnt control Hickson.
But...like in the Hickson vs Rei Zulu case, risky bet indeed: Hoyce was a complete rookie.
He had never even participated in BJJ tournaments b4, let alone been involved in street fights, as Helson later explained.
Indeed, it was a matter of influence inside the family.
Roots of the feud with Hickson:
“Rickson is not going to be fighting in War of the Worlds, Arturo. I’ve selected Royce to represent my family.”
Rorion stated this so matter of factly, that at first I didn’t fully comprehend what he was saying.
“What? Royce? But, Royce? Did Rickson get injured? Is he okay? Royce?”
I’d known that over the past few months, there was some kind of tension between Rorion and Rickson. [...] I had heard whispers that Rickson was starting to pilfer students from the academy, giving private instruction in his garage and keeping all of that money for himself. Rorion was paying all of the family salaries and bills out of the money that was being generated by the Gracie Academy and the Brajitsu, Inc. tapes, so this would have obviously been a real betrayal.
So he confronted Rickson, and was assured by his younger brother that it would not happen again. And then
Rorion kept hearing that it was happening again.
But the final straw between them was a massage that Rickson’s wife, Kim, had gotten. As the oldest son, Rorion was tasked with pooling all of the Gracie money, paying the bills, and then doling out the wages.
But the bills had to relate to the academy, and the family’s key living expenses: insurance, rent, food and
things like that—not personal extras.
Rickson tried to get Rorion to reimburse him for Kim’s massage. Rorion refused because he felt this
cost had nothing to do with the Gracie Academy or the family’s real expenses.
Rickson told Kim what Rorion had said. Kim told Rickson to stand up to his big brother. "
Relationships between Horion & Hoyce:
"I guess I wasn’t as shocked that Rickson was out, as much as I was that Royce was in. Since my
earliest days at the Academy, I picked up on the sibling rivalry between Rorion and Rickson, and how there was this unspoken struggle to be Hélio’s favorite, and the family’s heir apparent.
[...]
He never said much, and he seemed firmly under the guidance and control of Rorion—teaching classes all day long, and then cleaning up the Gracie Academy with a broom and mop. Royce lived in a tiny space over the garage at Rorion’s house [...]
Royce didn’t have a car or even a checking account. On Saturdays, after classes were done and Royce had completed his clean-up duties, he would shyly slip into Rorion’s office at the Academy, and patiently wait for his weekly allowance.
When I would be in there talking with Rorion, Royce would stand off to the side, not saying a word. Once
Rorion had acknowledged his kid brother’s presence, he would open the safe, pull out a few twenty-dollar bills, and hand them to Royce."
“Rickson is not going to be fighting in War of the Worlds, Arturo. I’ve selected Royce to represent my family.”
Rorion stated this so matter of factly, that at first I didn’t fully comprehend what he was saying.
“What? Royce? But, Royce? Did Rickson get injured? Is he okay? Royce?”
I’d known that over the past few months, there was some kind of tension between Rorion and Rickson. [...] I had heard whispers that Rickson was starting to pilfer students from the academy, giving private instruction in his garage and keeping all of that money for himself. Rorion was paying all of the family salaries and bills out of the money that was being generated by the Gracie Academy and the Brajitsu, Inc. tapes, so this would have obviously been a real betrayal.
So he confronted Rickson, and was assured by his younger brother that it would not happen again. And then
Rorion kept hearing that it was happening again.
But the final straw between them was a massage that Rickson’s wife, Kim, had gotten. As the oldest son, Rorion was tasked with pooling all of the Gracie money, paying the bills, and then doling out the wages.
But the bills had to relate to the academy, and the family’s key living expenses: insurance, rent, food and
things like that—not personal extras.
Rickson tried to get Rorion to reimburse him for Kim’s massage. Rorion refused because he felt this
cost had nothing to do with the Gracie Academy or the family’s real expenses.
Rickson told Kim what Rorion had said. Kim told Rickson to stand up to his big brother. "
Relationships between Horion & Hoyce:
"I guess I wasn’t as shocked that Rickson was out, as much as I was that Royce was in. Since my
earliest days at the Academy, I picked up on the sibling rivalry between Rorion and Rickson, and how there was this unspoken struggle to be Hélio’s favorite, and the family’s heir apparent.
[...]
He never said much, and he seemed firmly under the guidance and control of Rorion—teaching classes all day long, and then cleaning up the Gracie Academy with a broom and mop. Royce lived in a tiny space over the garage at Rorion’s house [...]
Royce didn’t have a car or even a checking account. On Saturdays, after classes were done and Royce had completed his clean-up duties, he would shyly slip into Rorion’s office at the Academy, and patiently wait for his weekly allowance.
When I would be in there talking with Rorion, Royce would stand off to the side, not saying a word. Once
Rorion had acknowledged his kid brother’s presence, he would open the safe, pull out a few twenty-dollar bills, and hand them to Royce."
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...1-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-34-horion´s-choice-ufc-1.3984975/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-35-the-samurai-the-missin´-link-in-bjj-evolution.3994271/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-40-smoke-gets-in-your-eyes.4154597/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...1-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-34-horion´s-choice-ufc-1.3984975/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-35-the-samurai-the-missin´-link-in-bjj-evolution.3994271/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-40-smoke-gets-in-your-eyes.4154597/
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