Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 16] - Siamese Brothers, The 2 HW GOATs...

[gono btw]

Herring climbed to the top in early 2000´s by beating best fighters of the turn of the century time: Vovchanchyn, Kerr & Erikson.
If you knew something about MMA history, then you would know that Herring was beeing predicted as Coleman´s sucessor as new # no. 1 by media and forums of that time. Herring was seen as first representative of new breed of evolved fighters, big, strong and good everywhere, good wrestling, understanding of ground game and submissions and good standup upgraded by training muay thai in Golden Glory in Netherlands .
He was ranked Top 3 in Nog and Fedor fights.

When you add Kongo and McGee wins, Herring has same number of Top 10 ranked wins as Frank Mir (5).
Heath also has other solid win vs Inoue, Evan Tanner, Kochkine, Schrijber, Goodrige.

Herring's best win is Gan McGee.

CroCop>>>>>>aDC lol

It´s worth notin´ that Herring had a drastic change between his early fights (WVC) and his Pride days: much thinner and more athletic in Pride..

 

[MartinGibson86]

Herring climbed to the top in early 2000´s by beating best fighters of the turn of the century time: Vovchanchyn, Kerr & Erikson.
If you knew something about MMA history, then you would know that Herring was beeing predicted as Coleman´s sucessor as new # no. 1 by media and forums of that time. Herring was seen as first representative of new breed of evolved fighters, big, strong and good everywhere, good wrestling, understanding of ground game and submissions and good standup upgraded by training muay thai in Golden Glory in Netherlands .
He was ranked Top 3 in Nog and Fedor fights.

When you add Kongo and McGee wins, Herring has same number of Top 10 ranked wins as Frank Mir (5).
Heath also has other solid win vs Inoue, Evan Tanner, Kochkine, Schrijber, Goodrige.

You and your "rankings" lol.

Frank Mir has shattered the limbs of UFC champs.

Herring lost to Jake O'Brien lol.

Hey, he did beat Goodridge and Kerr though lol. And he was predicted to be the next Coleman---who dropped 3 straight before going to Pride.

Mirko>>>>>DC

 

[DayV]

You and your "rankings" lol.

Frank Mir has shattered the limbs of UFC champs.

Herring lost to Jake O'Brien lol.

Hey, he did beat Goodridge and Kerr though lol. And he was predicted to be the next Coleman---who dropped 3 straight before going to Pride.

Mirko>>>>>DC

Rankings and authentic data are true picture of certain historic time and how things were back then, not personal opinion of someone like you who formed it wrong many years later by ignorance of relevant facts, data and on personal prejudice, and missinterpreting wikipedia.
It doesn`t matter if Colemam lost few fights, he climbed to the top multiple times by winning UFC tornaments, UFC divisional title, and Pride GP. Todays stars would also lose if they fought more often and in one night multiple fights tournaments.

Herring´s loss to O´Brien has no relevance to early 2000s when Herring beat Kerr, Vovchanchyn and Erikson who were measure of MMA success at that time.

History is what it is, and someone was good fighter at certain time if historic data and opinion of MMA public and media from that time show it. You cant judge fighters and history by your personal opinion, and weither or not you like some fighter personaly, or his fighting style many years later.

 

[moreorless87]

That knee injury Herring got in Hero's missing a lowkick on Greco really killed his career, he had neither the agility of the cardio of his peak years after that.

 

[pbateman]

16 Fights = 15-1 (NC vs Big Nog)
Total Rounds = 25
4 Dec. Wins
6 Subs:
Versatility: Armbar (x3) / RNC / Kimura (x2)
5 KO/TKO
1 Night with multiple fights: vs Ogawa & vs Big Nog

Quality Wins: 7
Big Nog (x2) (Dec.)
Crocop (Dec.)
Randleman (Sub.)
TK (TKO)
Fujita (Sub.)
Schilt (Dec.)

i think you forgot to list Heath Herring

 

[gono btw]

i think you forgot to list Heath Herring

 

[moreorless87]

You look back and really Herrings success was based on cardio and agility, guys like Kerr and Erikson could get him down but they couldn't do much and had to work hard to control him. By the time of his UFC run Heath didn't have the cardio to go hard for more than a round which made it far easier for Brock.

 

[PrinceOfPain]

Yeah, they are pretty damn close as far as legacy goes.
The lack of nog-level win on nog's resume (and that it was clearly not a Hallman sotuation) is what holds him back.

 

[gono btw]

Interesting.
I read it all.

A similar comparison could be made with JDS and Cain.
But more pronounced.
JDS is 1-2 against Cain, but he has a resume that is FAR better than Cain.
On an all time HW list, I would place JDS higher than Cain.

Some similarities there, indeed...

 

[gono btw]

Yeah, they are pretty damn close as far as legacy goes.
The lack of nog-level win on nog's resume (and that it was clearly not a Hallman sotuation) is what holds him back.

The thing is... some Fedor fans are too passionate and start usin´ superlatives, like 'unique' run, 'ultra-dominant' Fedor...

Doin´this, they tend to diminish Nog´s legacy, which is a mistake since Nog is realistically Fedor´s big ticket to potential goatness...

 

[Pingu]

Warning: TLDR here...

View attachment 456141

Today:

MYTH: Fedor had a 'unique' HW run,
& was the only dominant HW in MMA History.

Note: Im not sayin´ Fedor cant be considered the HW GOAT, this is a hespectable stance, & Im OK with it.
Im tryin´ to assess something else here.

Context:

Always thought that the fights between these 2 HW GOATS were indeed the tie-breaker when it comes to determinin´ the HW GOAT.
But...No longer so sure...

Was rooting for Nog at that time, was stunned to see Fedor, with his unorthodox boxing, negating Nog´s more traditional boxing stance...
Fedor won decisively, and I acknowledged his superiority.

Still, recently, after re-watching their early runs, their very 1st fights,
I now tend to consider that this tie-breaker might not be such a decisive one
when it comes to assessing their career as a whole...

The thing is... people seem to only remember their Pride run... But there were...

3 ERAs:

1) Rings Era [Ring] :

> Fedor:

12 Fights = 11-1 (TK fight : doctor stoppage after 17 sec)

1 Night with multiple fights:
vs Arona & vs TK.

Total Rounds = 15
Decisions = 3
Submissions = 5
> versatility: RNC (x2) / Guillotine (x2) / Armbar

Quality Wins:
Arona (Dec. > controversial)
Babalu (Dec.)
(Note: Babalu was a HW back then when he started.
In this fight he was around 229 lbs while Fedor was 227 lbs.)

View attachment 456153

Controversial Fight:

> vs Arona:

View attachment 456157 View attachment 456155
Arona was a LHW in this fight, @ 202 lbs, but you´re talkin about someone who would manhandle Kerr (!) a few yrs later @ ADCC.
The Arona fight was close, was ruled a Majority Draw at the end of the 2nd Round [Draw x 2 + 1 Judge gave it to Arona].
Arona had more ground control, but Fedor had more [not really tight] submission attempts...
Obviously, you have to consider Volk Han´s claim, that he had to interfere and make Maeda influence them judges...
Still, difficult to assess, right after the RTT vs Fedor feud...


> Big Nog:

10 Fights = 8-1-1 (Draw with TK & Split Dec. Loss vs Hendo)

Total Rounds = 17
Decisions = 3 (incl.: 1 Split Dec. Win vs Kopylov & 1 Split Dec. Loss vs Hendo)
Submissions = 6
> versatility: RNC / Armbar (x3) / Americana / Arm-Triangle Choke
4 Nights with multiple fights:
vs Valentijn Overeem & vs Kochkine / vs Kopylov & vs Hendo / vs Labasanov & vs Tamura /
vs Volk Han & vs Kanehara & vs Valentijn Overeem

Quality Wins:
Valentijn Overeem (x2) (Sub.)
Yuriy Kochkine (Sub.)
Jeremy Horn (Dec.)
Labasanov (Sub.)

Quality Loss:
Hendo (undersized) (Split Dec.)

Problematic Quality Wins:
Kopylov (Split Dec.)
Volk Han (Dec.)
> way past their physical prime.
Tamura (undersized) (Sub.)

Controversial Fights:

> vs Kopylov:

Nobody talks about this fight, but I have to keep it real...

Kopylov vs Minotau Round 1... IIRC, in my mind, that was the only round Nog potentially lost in Rings...
The ol´Vet definitely dominated him in that round...
And we´re talkin´ about a Prime Minotau, grappling-wise [striking wise, his prime was after his Cuban stint, in Pride].
Obviously, Kopylov was too old & broken to sustain this pace in Rd 2, and gassed badly.
The fight ended with a Majority decision in Minotau´s favour: 2 Draws & 1 Judge gave it to him.

> vs Hendo:

Hendo was a LHW in this fight [198 lbs], while Nog was a HW [230 lbs].

https://www.mma-core.com/videos/Dan...T_1_2_Rings_King_of_Kings_1999_Final/10021298

View attachment 456151 View attachment 456161

As always, tough Hendo fight to score...
At the end of the regular time [2nd Rd], the judges had it a Draw [x3].
Hendo was declared winner at the end of the 3rd Rd, but one could say that Nog was arguably winning by
the end of the 2nd Rd:
> 1st Rd:
Nog connected with 1 punch, Hendo had a few decent knees to the body.
Nog got the TDs, but got reversed. Nog even got the full mount (actually got 1 in each round),
but didnt transition to anything threatening...
> 2nd Rd:
Nog again got the TDs, Hendo threatened twice with [not so tight] guillotines.
Then Nog got the full mount, transitioned to a [decent] armbar but had his legs in the wrong position to secure it.
> 3rd Rd:
Both connected with punches, Hendo with a cleaner uppercut.
Then Nog got the full mount, but didnt create anything much out of it...


Verdict:
- Nog with 2 Controversial Fights, Fedor with 1. [Nog with a slightly better case vs Hendo than Fedor vs Arona...]
- Nog with realistically more [pure] Quality Wins (4>2)
- Nog with a tougher stength of schedule.
- Nog with a more versatile ground game.

Edge > Nog, easily.
Rings was tailor-made for Nog´s GOAT grappling, but Fedor showcased some
slick sequences on the ground too (see the Kerry Shall fight).


2) Pride Era [Ring] :

> Fedor:

16 Fights = 15-1 (NC vs Big Nog)
Total Rounds = 25
4 Dec. Wins
6 Subs:
Versatility: Armbar (x3) / RNC / Kimura (x2)
5 KO/TKO
1 Night with multiple fights: vs Ogawa & vs Big Nog

Quality Wins: 8
Big Nog (x2) (Dec.)
Crocop (Dec.)
Randleman (Sub.)
TK (TKO)
Herring (TKO)
Fujita (Sub.)
Schilt (Dec.)

Problematic Quality Wins:
Coleman (x2)
> Way past his physical prime, even super-juiced.


> Big Nog:

22 Fights = 18-3-1 (NC)
Total Rounds = 43
5 Dec. Wins
3 Dec. Losses (1 Split vs Barnett)
11 Subs:
Versatility: Armbar (x6) / Anaconda Choke (x2) / Triangle Choke (x3)
2 KO/TKO
1 Night with multiple fights: vs Kharitonov & vs Fedor 2.

Quality Wins: 8
Schilt (Sub.)
Coleman (Sub.)
Ricco (Dec.)
Crocop (Sub.)
Herring (Sub.)
Kharitonov (Dec.)
Werdum (Dec.)
Barnett (Dec.)

Problematic Quality Wins:
Hendo
Tamura
> Undersized.

Controversial Fights:

> vs Barnett 1:
Tough 2 score...
1st Rd:
Nog was clearly outboxing him with jabz, when he got caught by a left hook.
Barnett followed to the ground, but didnt create anything substancial...
Nog even got the reversal, full mount, transitioned to a slick armbar, pretty tight,
but Barnett miraculously escaped.
2nd Rd:
Barnett got the TD, but then got reversed... Nog got the full mount, even Barnett´s back,
but lost the position.
Then Barnett finished the round stronger with 2 decent kneebar attempts...



> vs Ricco Rodriguez:
Controversial dec., but people forget that Pride´s Scoring System was a complex one:
Hoyce got the decision vs Takada, Pride´s main star, while the Japanese spent some 95% of the fight on top of him...

Check da Wizard´s explanation:

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/PRIDE-Judge-Matt-Hume-Defends-Nog-vs-Ricco-Decision-1157


Obviously, these 2 Fedor wins over Nog were legit great, even GOAT, ones.

The question here is whether Nog can compensate overall with his Quality Wins.
Realistically, some elite competitors are missing here in Fedor´s resume:
Kharitonov, Werdum,Ricco,Barnett.
And Nog beat them all (1-1 vs Barnett).
Moreover, even though Fedor had an outstanding fight against Crocop, he did
fail to finish him, something Nog managed to do.


Verdict:
- Both with 2 Problematic Quality Wins.
- Both with equal Quality Wins (8-8).
- Nog with more 'elite' competition.
- Nog with 1 Controversial Fight.
- But Fedor with 2 GOAT Wins over Nog.

Edge > Fedor, but it´s arguably close when you consider
Nog´s [slightly] tougher stength of schedule.


3) Post-Pride Era:

Note: Im gonna assess their fights till 2010, since I consider that, back in the days,
34 yrs was the realistic limit for a physical prime.

> Fedor:

6 Fights = 5-1
Multiple Orgs:
Yarennoka! / Affliction / BodogFIGHT > Ring
SF > Cage.

2 KO/TKO : punches
3 Subs :
Versatility : Armbar (x2) / RNC
1 Loss : Werdum (Triangle Choke)
Total Rounds = 7

Quality Wins: 3
Sylvia (Sub.)
Arlovski (KO)
Matt Lindland (Sub.)


> Big Nog:

5 Fights = 3-2
Org.: UFC > Cage.
2 Dec. : vs Handy & vs Herring
2 Losses : vs Cain & vs Mir > TKO
Total Rounds = 12

Quality Wins: 3
Sylvia (Sub.)
Herring (Dec.)
Handy (Dec.)

Quality Losses:
Cain (KO)
Mir (TKO)


Verdict:
- Nog with [arguably] a slightly tougher strength of schedule again.
- Fedor with less losses
- Both declining.

Edge > hard to assess, but Fedor might get the nod here.



OVERALL > both locks @ top 2 ATG HW.

I feel that:

1- Nog might be ahead of Fedor in the HW GOAT list, or at least pretty close...
This is in no case a one-man race.

but:

2- Fedor should be ahead of him in the P4P GOAT list, since he was realistically undersized @ HW.

The thing is... some Fedor fans are too passionate and start usin´ superlatives, like 'unique' run, 'ultra-dominant' Fedor...
Doin´this, they tend to diminish Nog´s legacy, which is a mistake since Nog is realistically Fedor´s big ticket to potential goatness...

Hespect to both.

Coleman was old, but nogs hail Mary against a very green Cro cop counts for full points?

On the flip side, i think nogs performance against Fedor in the nc fight should be talked about more. He was doing very well, arguably winning.

That being Said Fedor is the hw goat. Except for nog in the nc fight nobody was ever close. Fujita and randleman both hit their kill moves and were Still finished soon after. The mans composure was out of this world.

 

[Greg House]

Sure, statistically they are both head to head and in my opinion Nog is the solid #2 far away from Stipe or Werdum, but I like to take into consideration the way the fights went too, not just the result.

You separate wins by finish or by decision, that's fine. But let's say, they both beat Sylvia. They both finished him. Same score, right? Well, not for me, because I saw Tim dominating Nog for 2 rounds and giving him a beating like no one has ever given to Fedor in his prime until Nog found a submission and got the win. On the other hand, Fedor demilished the fool in 40 seconds on a flawless victory. Both finishes, same score in your book, but not on mine.

Similar argument can be made for Mirko in a way even though one was a finish and the other a decision, these results are not black and white for me as they are for you.

In the end, Nog has a few more good names in his record, but Fedor was better.

 

[gono btw]

Coleman was old, but nogs hail Mary against a very green Cro cop counts for full points?

On the flip side, i think nogs performance against Fedor in the nc fight should be talked about more. He was doing very well, arguably winning.

That being Said Fedor is the hw goat. Except for nog in the nc fight nobody was ever close. Fujita and randleman both hit their kill moves and were Still finished soon after. The mans composure was out of this world.

I kindah agree about the 2nd fight.

Crocop´s performance has to be valued: when ya´re that competitive against someone like Nog, ya cant be seen as a 'green' player.

Anyway, this thread is not about who´s GOAT or not, rather about the gap between the 2, résumé-wise.

 

[koquerelle]

You split the run in two and it makes the difference look smaller. I’m not even a Fedor fan and I find this borderline dishonest. I usually enjoy your threads, but not this one. Nog had a great run, but Fedor is above him and it’s not even close.

Ps: Ricco was robbed

 

[Pingu]

I kindah agree about the 2nd fight.

Crocop´s performance has to be valued: when ya´re that competitive against someone like Nog, ya cant be seen as a 'green' player.

Anyway, this thread is not about who´s GOAT or not, rather about the gap between the 2, résumé-wise.

But Cro cop was much better when he fought Fedor. He was two years into his MMA career when he fought nog. Finish or not Fedor fought a way better version of mirco. It has to be considered when discussing this and that was my point!

 

[gono btw]

Sure, statistically they are both head to head and in my opinion Nog is the solid #2 far away from Stipe or Werdum, but I like to take into consideration the way the fights went too, not just the result.

You separate wins by finish or by decision, that's fine. But let's say, they both beat Sylvia. They both finished him. Same score, right? Well, not for me, because I saw Tim dominating Nog for 2 rounds and giving him a beating like no one has ever given to Fedor in his prime until Nog found a submission and got the win. On the other hand, Fedor demilished the fool in 40 seconds on a flawless victory. Both finishes, same score in your book, but not on mine.

Similar argument can be made for Mirko in a way even though one was a finish and the other a decision, these results are not black and white for me as they are for you.

In the end, Nog has a few more good names in his record, but Fedor was better.

As stated in the OP, I consider that their post-Pride era is not that relevant, the diminution in skills was far too obvious.
If ya indeed watched Nog when he landed in the UFC [vs Heath], ya would easily acknowledge that too.

Against Crocop, a finish, legacy-wise, has to be highlighted, qualitatively, even though Fedor´s win was impressive too.

"to take into consideration the way the fights went too, not just the result."> well, why do ya think I took time to assess some forgotten fights like Nog vs Kopylov?

Anyway, this thread is not about who´s GOAT or not or H2H confrontation, but rather about the gap between the 2, résumé-wise.
Strength of schedule is essential here, and ya have to acknowledge that.

 

[gono btw]

You split the run in two and it makes the difference look smaller. I’m not even a Fedor fan and I find this borderline dishonest. I usually enjoy your threads, but not this one. Nog had a great run, but Fedor is above him and it’s not even close.

Ps: Ricco was robbed

Obviously it´s split in 2... Talkin´about résumés...
This thread is not about who´s GOAT or not or H2H confrontation, but rather about the gap between the 2, résumé-wise.

Ricco vs Nog, ya have to acknowledge Pride´s [complex] Scorin´ System, no way out.

 

[gono btw]

But Cro cop was much better when he fought Fedor. He was two years into his MMA career when he fought nog. Finish or not Fedor fought a way better version of mirco. It has to be considered when discussing this and that was my point!

hmmm...I tend to agree, but in both cases he could already [realistically] be considered elite.
Meanwhile, he was still undefeated when he fought Nog. The Randle loss has to be acknowledged too, mentally.

On a side note, your assessment about the Nog vs Crocop is slightly 'inaccurate': a 'hail mary' is like in the Sonnen vs Spider fight.
Nog was patient and finally got the TD early in the 2nd Rd (he would always get it, more often than not), and there was lil probability that Crocop would stuff all the TDs, and since Nog´s grapplin´ was way above his, he only needed 1.

 

[One MMA Fan]

@gono btw hey.. I keep seeing this people with their HW GOAT lists and what the heck there is an disturbing amount of lack of Nog but in some cases they do respect Fedor and rank him on top so what gives.

Other just looking at CroCop's record and putting him down for not getting the W as much as they want for their own vision of a GOAT candidate. Dudes you really think CroCop for example wouldn't had handle people like Lewis that DC made a tittle defense on for crying out loud. I'll take a hard fought loss vs a top fighter then a win vs Lewis but it doesn't look good in fight finder doesn't it ?

Why are so many resisting Stipe for top GOAT ? well he looks human that's why he lost most of those rounds vs DC arguably he only has 1 max 2 if you are generous. His defense are what they are vs over the hill JDS vs Reem touch him and he drops vs Francis to high on his horse. Yea good luck with that a week ago most of this forum was laughing at him but hey he got the W so it's all good now right ? or DC at HW the mythical beast.. his best win at HW was decision Barnett that's it before he got Stipe that is and in the HW UFC he looked average did any of his performances really impressed anyone ? (before he went back and got the belt).

So chilax on the GOAT lists and wait a tad let things settle before your proclaim your new king.. I wonder what happens if Francis KO's him I guess that's a new goat right ?

 

[Prutfis]