Death Penalty - for/against?

[DoomPatrol]

It doesn't have to be.

Not unless you want to take away people's rights to fight a conviction.

 

[Fawlty]

I also think it's all a matter of personal investment. The same people arguing against it ITT would be the first person ready to string someone up for raping and murdering their daughter. Anyone and everyone that's against it in this thread simply hasn't been hurt in the worst circumstances. And they can GTFO.

That's not a valid point. This was recognized and addressed by our ancestors before they even sailed to America, and the contradiction has been resolved as long as democracy has been around. That old fucker Locke in particular writes about this well. Paraphrasing, that nothing stops a man from exacting too much punishment other than his own reason. The implication is that we will tend to punish too harshly when we do not have our wits about us. This stuff is American judicial bedrock. We can't appeal against it the way you have without looking like goddamn fools.

 

[Forkfoot]

An apology from a prosecutor who put an innocent man on death row.

 

[UpaLoompa]

People complaining about the wrongful convictions: fix your legal system.

Unfortunately the people that are usually in favor of the death penalty don't think there's anything wrong with our legal system. Sentencing is biased? So what. Eye witness testimony is unreliable? So what.

Hell, many of those favoring the death penalty want to remove protections and call for fewer appeals which will just exacerbate the problem.

 

[JDragon]

eople too often think of the perpetrators perspective. Let's try thinking of capital punishment from a father's perspective. Or a mother, sister, child of the victim, etc.

Imagine someone snatches your 5-6 year old daughter from your back-yard while bla bla bla

If we assume the death penalty has a positive influence on how relatives / victims feel, let's see a study on that. I mean it must exist, right?

 

[Higus]

That's not a valid point. This was recognized and addressed by our ancestors before they even sailed to America, and the contradiction has been resolved as long as democracy has been around. That old fucker Locke in particular writes about this well. Paraphrasing, that nothing stops a man from exacting too much punishment other than his own reason. The implication is that we will tend to punish too harshly when we do not have our wits about us. This stuff is American judicial bedrock. We can't appeal against it the way you have without looking like goddamn fools.

Just to add to this point, any argument that relies on "what if this happened to you" is going to be inherently flawed. What if someone murdered someone I loved? I'd want to kill them myself. What if someone I loved was wrongfully convicted and sentenced to death? I'd want to kill the real culprit and the prosecutor while I was at it. What if Nazi Germany could have prevented your loved one from being hurt? You could come to some pretty terrible conclusions with that line of reasoning.

 

[Fawlty]

Just to add to this point, any argument that relies on "what if this happened to you" is going to be inherently flawed. What if someone murdered someone I loved? I'd want to kill them myself. What if someone I loved was wrongfully convicted and sentenced to death? I'd want to kill the real culprit and the prosecutor while I was at it. What if Nazi Germany could have prevented your loved one from being hurt? You could come to some pretty terrible conclusions with that line of reasoning.

Bolded, I hadn't thought of that one before. That's a very good point that scales down well.

 

[FinalFight]

I'm against innocent people being put to death, so of course I'm against the death penalty.

 

[rearnakedchoke]

Don't you think that's hypocritical for a Christian like yourself?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone

 

[Fawlty]

wikipedia quote mining:


Adams: "It is more important that innocence should be protected, than it is, that guilt be punished; for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world, that all of them cannot be punished.... when innocence itself, is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, 'it is immaterial to me whether I behave well or ill, for virtue itself is no security.' And if such a sentiment as this were to take hold in the mind of the subject that would be the end of all security whatsoever"

Franklin: "That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a Maxim that has been long and generally approved."


While their reasoning arguably breaks down at lower levels of punishment (does it?), we're talking about the final one, the big one. The murder by the state cannot be arbitrary. When technology produced a way to better determine guilt or innocence, those states who applied the technology were acting in good faith as a government. Those states who kept on killing regardless were doing so arbitrarily.

 

[longafan]

I am not for death penalty, for the reason that innocent people get executed sometimes...but I am for allowing prisoners to opt for execution, by that I mean any prisoner could choose to be executed rather than serve out their sentence, provided the process was transparent, with multiple checks by independent monitors throughout the process to ensure it was actually the will of the prisoner and they weren't being forced to make the choice...also, I would have them use pure heroin as the dug of execution, a LOT of it, injected...don't understand why they don't use that now

 

[Byron Carter]

I am not for death penalty, for the reason that innocent people get executed sometimes...but I am for allowing prisoners to opt for execution, by that I mean any prisoner could choose to be executed rather than serve out their sentence, provided the process was transparent, with multiple checks by independent monitors throughout the process to ensure it was actually the will of the prisoner and they weren't being forced to make the choice...also, I would have them use pure heroin as the dug of execution, a LOT of it, injected...don't understand why they don't use that now

It will never happen.

Most prisoners won't even sign DNR orders when they are terminally ill. The state blows millions of dollars on keeping elderly inmates alive as long as possible.

I'm against innocent people being put to death, so of course I'm against the death penalty.

So, you're against legitimate wars then I suppose? Since innocent people die all the time. Perhaps we should have not went to war with the Nazi's or the Japanese, since we killed millions of innocent people?

Just to add to this point, any argument that relies on "what if this happened to you" is going to be inherently flawed.

No, it's not. In fact, this should be the basis for any rational thought. "What if I were in X position."

Well, if someone killed my daughter, I'd want them to die. If I murdered someone, it is fair and rational that I be put to death. If my loved one truly did murder someone, then they have to pay the consequences.

 

[UpaLoompa]

No, it's not. In fact, this should be the basis for any rational thought. "What if I were in X position."

Well, if someone killed my daughter, I'd want them to die. If I murdered someone, it is fair and rational that I be put to death. If my loved one truly did murder someone, then they have to pay the consequences.

I find it quite amusing that conservative positions are driven so strongly by emotional appeals and yet it is liberals so often accused of making emotional arguments.

 

[Byron Carter]

I find it quite amusing that conservative positions are driven so strongly by emotional appeals and yet it is liberals so often accused of making emotional arguments.

It's not an emotional appeal.

It's the basis for logic, law, and morality.

The golden rule.

How else are we to create laws and rules, other than "If I did X, what is fair."


I am saying, if I killed someone in cold blood, without extreme mitigating circumstances, then I deserve the death penalty. If my own child does the same, she deserves the death penalty.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

the death penalty is actually kinda the opposite of the Golden Rule tho....

We're going to show you that killing (namely murder) is the ultimate crime, by....killing you. wait, what? this isn't Hammurabi's code and shit, we did away w/ an eye for an eye quite some time ago

 

[ALAN PARTRIDGE]

bring it back to Europe

 

[Byron Carter]

the death penalty is actually kinda the opposite of the Golden Rule tho....

We're going to show you that killing (namely murder) is the ultimate crime, by....killing you. wait, what? this isn't Hammurabi's code and shit, we did away w/ an eye for an eye quite some time ago

All killing is not the same.


Murder, Accidents, Manslaughter, Self-defense, mutual combat, war-time slaying, law enforcement.


We are able to clearly differentiate between types of killing in our society.



My contention is that a state execution would fall under the blanket of "Law Enforcement". Just as a police officer has a duty to shoot and kill a mass shooter, or a corrections officer has a duty to shoot a fleeing felon, the state has a duty to execute the most vile of criminals, for the sake of justice and peace of mind for the victims and their family.


Following these analogies, please answer this:

Do you want a police officer to shoot and kill armed criminals? Do you want a corrections officer to shoot and kill a child rapist as he escapes from a maximum security prison?

If so, you are already in support of state sanctioned killings. It's just a matter of where we draw the line.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

I understand what you're saying, doesn't change the fact they are literally showing the ultimate crime is taking someone's life....by taking your life..

 

[UpaLoompa]

It's not an emotional appeal.

It's the basis for logic, law, and morality.

The golden rule.

How else are we to create laws and rules, other than "If I did X, what is fair."


I am saying, if I killed someone in cold blood, without extreme mitigating circumstances, then I deserve the death penalty. If my own child does the same, she deserves the death penalty.

Retribution is not an emotional appeal?

 

[HunterSdVa29]

i wouldn't use LE as an example either, how many of their killings are actually justifed and not straight up murder?

not too many i'd imagine