Dealing with wrestlers (**Judo/Randori**)

[EndoG]

One thing I haven't heard with regard to "dealing with wrestlers" is using judo takedowns.
Specifically (and yes, I'm very new to judo) I find that I have almost 0 success applying my judo against people using a crouched wrestling stance.

Tips on what to work on look for in general?

(And if you're feeling generous any suggestions about what I should work on -- I'm 6'2 ~200lbs (very lean and long legged build). The throws I've been putting the most time into so far are: Ochi Gari, Kouchi Gari, Osoto Gari, and Tai Otoshi [work well with my height and they all provide a nice position for grappling after the throw].)

Thanks Judo guys and anyone else with recommendations.
I've been told "it's easy", just grab the other guy by the belt when they crouch and Osoto Gari, but I've had 0 luck with that so far.

 

[flikerstance]

One thing I haven't heard with regard to "dealing with wrestlers" is using judo takedowns.
Specifically (and yes, I'm very new to judo) I find that I have almost 0 success applying my judo against people using a crouched wrestling stance.

Tips on what to work on look for in general?

(And if you're feeling generous any suggestions about what I should work on -- I'm 6'2 ~200lbs (very lean and long legged build). The throws I've been putting the most time into so far are: Ochi Gari, Kouchi Gari, Osoto Gari, and Tai Otoshi [work well with my height and they all provide a nice position for grappling after the throw].)

Thanks Judo guys and anyone else with recommendations.
I've been told "it's easy", just grab the other guy by the belt when they crouch and Osoto Gari, but I've had 0 luck with that so far.

lol

 

[flikerstance]

that sounds tough trying to use a judo throw when a wrestler is crouching. Try to shoot in on him.

 

[judogido]

Uchi-mata and sumi-gaeshi are my "weapons of choice" in this scenario...

 

[QingTian]

get him moving. nobody crouches 100% of the time.

 

[georgejjr]

Are you talking about gi or no-gi? If its no-gi, then the crouch is very effective, which is why you see olympic wrestlers using it. If gi, then go for over the back grips, and break his posture ... the gi makes a huge difference. The Georgian grip for instance is very effective against an opponent who is crouched over - he's basically giving you control.

But if you're just beginning judo, talk to your instructor - its too early to work on grips.

 

[codemonkey76]

all the throws you mentioned except the tai otoshi are backward throws, I have been told the best offense against a crouched stance are forward throws, like uchi mata. as judogi said sumi gaeshi is great coz they are practically giving you the over the back grip.

 

[Q mystic]

Yep. Its because you are new to judo.

All due respect, the typical wrestlers crouch is the last thing any would want to do in a gi with grips on each other.

Are you specifically talking about a wrestler or just a bent over fighter?

You would have to be more specific but I'll tell you, as you said you are new, the answer is in the basics that you have prolly been learning.

I would really just keep trying harder to make what you have learnt work.

crouched fighter? Maybe since your new and lanky try osotos and a taiotoshi/koshiguruma thing(head and arm but with a behind the neck collar grip). Just take strong hand grips with a flexible arm, body and legs supporting them and attack often taking risks and forcing the throw sometimes. Twist him, wring him and smash him and keep attacking with it while controlling with your grips. One time it'll score, it'll click in and you'll know better what your looking for.

Its important that you really learn to get comfy with just moving around and staying in control with your grips on the fighter.

I bet I can tell you half the mistake right off the bat, especially if he is a wrestler. He's goin hard and you might not have 'learned' how to yet.

Wrestlers 'take it easy' at practice and thats still goin 95%. You as a typical judoka working with other recs who wanna take it easy(doesn't happen in wrestling) might often have to work your osoto like 'twist, leg behind and drive all while smoothly accelerating torque to maybe 100%' and that sucks. When you fight another 'vet' be it judo or wrestler at judo, you gotta smash him. You can save power for certain times but when you work shit in randori you gotta be split speeed and IMPACT baby! Don't fuck around thinking lets see how this works. Just sssssss...BAM! If it didn't work, then make sure he at least felt very uncomfortable in your attempt. Its an offensive sport. Take lots of risks and beat him down in the process. Lots of light, explosive uchikomi and lots of heavy randori.

See my av to the top left? Power kill machines. These fellas would make sure that the tech they have REALLY didn't work before moving on to another. I bet.:icon_lol:

 

[Nickynoneck]

all the throws you mentioned except the tai otoshi are backward throws, I have been told the best offense against a crouched stance are forward throws, like uchi mata. as judogi said sumi gaeshi is great coz they are practically giving you the over the back grip.

With gi the best set up for a crouched oppenent is a belt grab tai toshi/uchi mata to a sumi geashi if the tai toshi/uchi mata is there take it but most likley he will resist it by bending his legs and kinda going into a football stance thats when you go for the sumi geashi or drop into a arm bar .

 

[yabanjames]

If he's wearing a gi, grab his belt over his right shoulder with your right hand, control his head with the back of your right arm, and do obitori gaeshi to your right, blocking his left foot with your right foot. Use your left arm to lift his right arm as you make the throw.

Or just do sasae tsurikomi ashi to whichever side you like better.

 

[sheddy]

Is this a constant stance by your opponeent, or is it that occasionally this position gives you problems??

Like has been said, uchi mata and sumi gaeshi which is practically made to counter this stance...if you can pull it off:

I suggest working on breaking your opponents balance.

 

[Drew Foster]

ENDOG:


I haven't read the thread. Never a good idea when replying but fuck it. I'm gonna tella NO-GI story. I will read the whole thread in a sec. But I FEEL your pain brother. Every Mon and Thurs we train a takedown circle with a guy who missed this years Olympics by 1 point. I can't get my Judo to work on him either, that's whyy I'm going to go train with Karo Parisyan for a few weks. My no-gi needs improvement.

With that aid, I've had three successful Judo throws on him. My specialties are the fabulous five: Uchimata, Harai Goshi, Hae Goshi, Osoto Gari, and Seoi Nage. Unfortunately, I'm 175, and he's 200 all muscle.

This is when I realized I had to work on my leg throws. Big, upper body throws won't work on wrestlers. You can hit an Uchimata, because that works great when someone is crouched with spread feet, but that's it out of the ones I just mentioned. And maybe Seoinage if you do the double knee drop version.


But practice Kouchi, Ouchi, and Kosoto Gari. Uchimata is a beast too if they have a gi on.

I have only thrown him with: Kouchi Gari, Ouchi Gari, and Uchimata (very ugly though, he landed on his side, and I fell too).

Even then with the Kouchi and Ouchi, and hadto shoot and drop to one knee first and then reap with the other leg.


Good luck!

P.S. I'm not counting sacrifice throws, as those aren't my thing. But those may really be the best way to go. Sumi Gaeshi maybe??? Take what you want from my post and throw away the rest.

 

[Drew Foster]

Wrestlers 'take it easy' at practice and thats still goin 95%. You as a typical judoka working with other recs who wanna take it easy(doesn't happen in wrestling) might often have to work your osoto like 'twist, leg behind and drive all while smoothly accelerating torque to maybe 100%' and that sucks. When you fight another 'vet' be it judo or wrestler at judo, you gotta smash him. You can save power for certain times but when you work shit in randori you gotta be split speeed and IMPACT baby! Don't fuck around thinking lets see how this works. Just sssssss...BAM! If it didn't work, then make sure he at least felt very uncomfortable in your attempt. Its an offensive sport. Take lots of risks and beat him down in the process. Lots of light, explosive uchikomi and lots of heavy randori.

See my av to the top left? Power kill machines. These fellas would make sure that the tech they have REALLY didn't work before moving on to another. I bet.:icon_lol:

DAMN Q! I'm hearing Rocky theme music in the background! You got me motivated over here!

 

[EndoG]

Wow, thanks a lot for all the advice!
I have a lot to go to work with and I'll definitely try working on sumi gaeshi (the mechanics seem to share some general features of the hook sweep from butterfly guard, which may also help my use of it and the over-back belt grip makes it seem safer than some other sacrifice throws too (? =)).

I'll def. play with my grips and try to be more comitted in randori. I think you're right Q, in that I'm probably being too tentative when faced with that position and need to dive in more.

Again thanks a lot for all the advice.
For context, I was refering to standing randori/takedowns with the gi. All of my partners who use the stance are former wrestlers, a couple of them are in my judo class and play more traditional judo occasionally -- this weekend we did competition from standing in my BJJ class and I had the same problem against a former wrestler and realized I was probably going to be facing a lot of this in the future.

=)

 

[EndoG]

(That was weird, it didn't register my post yesterday even though it shows up in thread...)

Anyway, thanks again for the advice! It's a huge help! I have a lot to start working on =)

 

[Guards]

Its because you are new...

Its important that you really learn to get comfy with just moving around...

you might not have 'learned' how to yet...

you gotta smash him. You can save power for certain times but when you work shit in randori you gotta be split speeed and IMPACT baby! Don't fuck around thinking lets see how this works.

Chopped it up a bit, THESE are the things you need to focus on, 100%

The biggest, most dramatic improvement you will make in your entire Judo career will be the moment you learn to NOT care if you get thrown.

You need to have faith in your technique, and (like Japanese philosophy will so rightly tell you...) execute your technique with 100% commitment. No hesitation, just conviction.

If you ever TRY a throw, you need to be giving it your best attempt at making it work.

DO NOT Half-ass a throw attempt. Don't step in and push and... Oh, I can't get his balance off enough, let me try later.

When you step in, when you commit to an attack, THAT is your shot. Take it, and make it work. THAT is when everything on the line. When you prepare to execute your technique, it becomes you or him. The precise moment of execution is when the match is won or lost. :icon_chee

 

[Guards]

Also, when it comes to the "Wrestler's Stance" I prefer to fight the exact opposite of their game. You have to improve your sprawl and be strong at defending leg-takedowns.

It upsets them to no end if they hunker down like they're getting ready to tackle/double-leg and you are standing upright and dance laterally around them before you set grip. Once the grip is in place, people seem intent on forcing you to 'Play Their Game', and often I have people who spend more time trying to break my upright posture than they do trying to execute a throw or takedown.

Tawara Gaeshi(Shown at: Tawara Gaeshi, Rice Bag Reversal ) is arguably my favorite anti-wrestler move. This throw requires that you have a posture that lands 'Above' your opponent so you can't be in the same crouch.

When they make their shot, you release any grips that you have and try to get both arms hugged around their ribs, kind of like double underhooks but upsde-down and backwards. As soon as you lock a good hold from there, basically perform a 'Suplex' motion of throwing yourself backwards, and taking them with you. Once you're past 'Vertical' you can pretty much release the grip. I've created separations upwardsof 1 meter using this throw, and more than once gotten the equivalent of 'Holy Shiiit!' from the victim.

 

[judofarmerbob]

tomoe juji. especially if you're longer legged.

rasslers like to sprawl away from everything, and if they're bent over already it's even better.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8ZG1D9I9_BE&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8ZG1D9I9_BE&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3SvElt6u1jU&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3SvElt6u1jU&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nQuNZ62SicM&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nQuNZ62SicM&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

 

[judofarmerbob]

i'm not allowed to do that in randori anymore either. last night, the grandmaster was like "JAY! NO MORE FLYING SCISSOR CROSS ARMLOCK TECHNIQUE! AN NO MORE TOMOE NAGE ARMLOCK EITHER! YOU OSOTOGARI AN DAS IT!"

i love that man.

 

[georgejjr]

i'm not allowed to do that in randori anymore either. last night, the grandmaster was like "JAY! NO MORE FLYING SCISSOR CROSS ARMLOCK TECHNIQUE! AN NO MORE TOMOE NAGE ARMLOCK EITHER! YOU OSOTOGARI AN DAS IT!"

i love that man.

Never heard of a judo instructor calling himself a grandmaster (or even a master), it sounds pretty goofy in the judo context. Or is that just what his students call him informally out of respect?