Deadspin: Whatever Happened To The UFC?

Half of the watered down complaints are just because people were used to watching 4/5 fight cards instead of all the fights (prelims).

Maybe they should go back to that.

Go back to no prelims being shown at all so then we can hear the complaints about not being able to see them only to see prelims be brought back and fans complain they have to watch them.
 
Same here. No matter how blowhardy some of the posters here are, and despite the rampant self-denial and delusion, the sport is oversaturated. Don't know why people still argue this point. The free cards are supposed to eat all the bad fighters and prospects, thus leaving the PPV for incredible, stacked cards, but Zuffa is remarkably bad at this.

Maybe Joe Silva is overworked or something, but Zuffa is really bad at setting up PPV cards. The excitement level is no longer there. They should at least make six super stacked cards, then build lesser cards with what's left. Instead, it feels like they've averaged out all their cards so they are universally mediocre. They still have awesome individual fights, but overall cards are really boring.

It's not self denial. The level of saturation is different for different people. If you only like watching top 10 guys, you probably aren't going to care about most Fight Nights. However, Fight Nights have never been about top talent. So really, they've gone from putting on a few shows featuring prospects to several shows featuring prospects.

On the other hand, PPV main cards have always had suspect talent here and there. You had guys like Dean Lister in a PPV co-main in his UFC debut, You had Elvis Sinosic, David Heath, and Assuerio Silva all on the same PPV main card. You had 12-8 Jess Liaudin making his UFC debut on a PPV. Despite the fact that he won and how good he proved to be, you had a virtually unknown fighter in Junior dos Santos making his debut not just on a PPV, but against one of the top HWs in the promotion. After going 0-2 against Monson and Wellisch and getting released, Anthony Perosh made his UFC return on a PPV, against the legend Cro Cop no less. This is just a small sample of the many fights/fighters of questionable nature that have appeared on UFC PPVs all along that one could argue have watered down the product.

It's also worth mentioning that if we go and look at a lot of today's more watered down cards, it's often because the card was originally supposed to be pretty stacked, but fighters had to pull out and other fights were scrapped, causing them to use replacement fights/fighters or even bump up prelim fights to the main card. UFC 170 is a great example of a stacked card that became a joke to many people. It wasn't by design. It wasn't the result of Joe Silva and Sean Shelby not being good at their job. It wasn't because they don't try to put out a good product. It was because Rashad Evans had to pull out of the fight. It was because Khabilov got injured and they had to pull RDA from the card. It was because Melendez couldn't reach a deal in time, so his planned fight with Nurmagomedov was scrapped. So they fill in the pieces the best they can.

Here's another problem with Flyweights headlining a card. You basically wouldn't have a card if you didn't have a title fight to offer, and now that you do you need 9-10 more fights to complete the card.

For some people, maybe they can't respect a flyweight title fight the same as other title fights. But for me personally, I don't look at a FLW fight any different than I would a MW title fight, or any other title fight. To me, it's the best guy in the division defending his title.

If you are talking about building a card around that and needing them to be the biggest draw on the card, I could see the problem, but I don't think that always has to be true. On the Fox card, Mighty Mouse headlined with Rampage in the co-main event. It seemed to work out well. In regards to 174, the co-main was a potential title eliminator between top top ranked WWs.
 
Wall of text = Pseudosport shills


Nothing wrong with that. But largely, the top tier guys are separated from the prospects. Top guys are usually on PPVs, and prospects are usually on Fight Nights and prelims. They cross over when they occasionally put bigger names in Fight Night main events or when they need some replacement fighters on PPV main cards.
But none of this is anything new. Forrest Griffin was a TUF prospect who got on PPV main cards right from the start. He was fighting guys like Bill Mahood and co-main eventing with Elvis Sinosic. Even when he was considered more of a veteran, he was in a PPV co-main event with Hector Ramiriz.
So even if there is some bleeding over with lesser knowns, journeymen, and prospects getting some PPV action, that is how it has always been. So people saying it used to be so good and now it is watered down are looking at the past through rose colored glases.
There is nothing wrong with that. If you only want the best, that is totally fine. I hate to say this, but this is where the whole "then don't watch" really is the best response. If you only want the best, only watch the best. Only watch PPV main cards. For the most part, the guys put on there are top 15 other than late replacement fights/fighters. Even then, only watch the ones with guys you want to see. Skip prelims unless there is a guy you are interested in. Skip the Fight Nights unless there is a main event you want to see. Then you don't really need to watch the whole main card. Just tune in for the main event.
Define "worse". You have guys at the top like Bisping who are 2-3 in their last five. Then you have guys you've never heard of farther down on the rankings that are undefeated in the promotion. On one hand, Bisping would probably beat that guy. On the other hand, nobody has been able to beat him so far. Do you get rid of a guy who hasn't lost just because he is down on the food chain?
If they did do what you suggest, and take things back to 2010, you have to remember, there are twice as many divisions as there were back then. So not only are you going back to around 200 fighters, but you are cutting the divisions back then in half to split the difference with the new divisions. How many do you want in each on the average.
Also, if you cut back the number of shows, you can't reach as many locations. Which might be fine, but how do you deal with all of the people asking when your coming back to Germany, when are you coming to Poland, when are you coming to southeast Asia, when are you coming back to Quebec, when are you coming back to Seattle, etc.? How do you meet the live show demand the best you can with a cut back number of shows/fighters?
I mean, I like things the way they are. But I also liked it back then. I'm not opposed to the idea of taking it back a notch, but give me an action plan. Let's talk about how you think they should go about that.
How much are they really watered down compared to back in the day? Also, what does the free cards have to do with PPVs being allegedly watered down?
I know some people say that if they didn't have so many Fight Nights, they wouldn't have to pull as many top guys to headline those cards, freeing them up for PPV action. But let's look at that theory. Today you have Marquardt vs. Te Huna. People are bitching that it is a shit fight. Is it really the fight you wish they would put on a PPV main card? Now, some guys like Machida and Gustafsson have been used, so there could be something to be said about that. But let's still look deeper.
Most of the PPV main cards are pretty stacked by design. What happens is that as injuries and other things happen that alter the original card, you have to make adjustments. Let's look at the case of Cormier/Cummins. You have Cormier's original opponent, top ranked Evans, pulling out of the fight. You have to find a replacement. You might think that if some guys were tied up in Fight Night main events, they would be available to fight Cormier. But it's a little tougher than just that. Not a lot of guys, even top tier guys, are going to accept a last minute fight against a guy like Cormier. Machida, a top ranked guy who was on a recent Fight Pass main event has a history of refusing to act as a last minute replacement. He turned down fights with both Evans and Jones that we know of when they needed a replacement. You could just pull Cormier from the card. But here on Sherdog where we complain bout fighter pay, that would be like asking him to go from getting paid to not getting paid. It's asking a guy we didn't think could even fight at LHW to altering his weight plan and make weight a few weeks or more to hit that target of 206. There are problems. So sometimes, you have to plug in guys that might not be as desirable on a PPV main card. There isn't really a solution to that. It even happened back when there were half the fighters on the roster and hardly any Fight Nights.
This is just some bullshit complainers say to discredit people who might actually like the product.
For example, I was a big WEC fan. Nobody ever called me a shill for saying I like the UFC. So if I like the FWs and the BWs, of course I'm going to also enjoy them in the UFC. However, I have been called a shill for defending those divisions being in the UFC. I'm not a shill for liking them before they were in the UFC, but I am a shill for liking them in the UFC. Can't people just accept that I like the product?
Same with the women. Nobody called me a UFC shill for being a fan of WMMA back in 2007. Am I supposed to be against it now that it happens to be in the UFC? No. I'm a fan of WMMA. So I support it being in the UFC. Doesn't make me a shill, just a fan of the product.
I've always been a fan Fight Nights since the first one back in 2005. I'm not even really defending the increased number of Fight Nights so much as I'm just reminding people that they always consisted of similar talent and were never really as stacked as some people seem to believe. But I've been called a shill for that. In fact, a big reason I like watching the prospects is because I'm already familiar with a lot of them because I do follow MMA outside of the UFC, which is another reason I shouldn't be refered to as a plant or a zombie. I'm actually talking some guys up because I watch enough non-Zuffa MMA.
Fight Pass. That's always a hot topic. But again, I have a good reason for supporting it. I've been buying up old UFC DVDs for a while. I can assure you, Fight Pass gives me a much cheaper way of having access to all of those fights. 10 bucks a month is much cheaper than if I were going out and buying them on DVD. On top of that, Fight Nights never came out on DVD that I'm aware of other than some "best of" compilations. On top of that, there is all the non-UFC Zuffa owned content that would be expensive and hard to find. I'm not even talking about the live events and all of that. The fight library, for me personally is worth the asking price. I don't think it is for everyone, and that is fine. But it is for some people. But again, I've been called a shill for supporting Fight Pass.
People like to throw that "UFC plant/UFC shill" crap around,
but isn't it just possible that some of us actually enjoy the product? And it's not just a few guys supporting the product, it's a lot of people. That isn't to say that everyone will or even should enjoy it. It's not for everyone. Not liking some of the changes, or even any of them is a fair opinion. But there are many of us that are okay with it, not because we are UFC plants, not because we are Zuffa Zombies, but because we actually like the product.
It's not self denial. The level of saturation is different for different people. If you only like watching top 10 guys, you probably aren't going to care about most Fight Nights. However, Fight Nights have never been about top talent. So really, they've gone from putting on a few shows featuring prospects to several shows featuring prospects.
On the other hand, PPV main cards have always had suspect talent here and there. You had guys like Dean Lister in a PPV co-main in his UFC debut, You had Elvis Sinosic, David Heath, and Assuerio Silva all on the same PPV main card. You had 12-8 Jess Liaudin making his UFC debut on a PPV. Despite the fact that he won and how good he proved to be, you had a virtually unknown fighter in Junior dos Santos making his debut not just on a PPV, but against one of the top HWs in the promotion. After going 0-2 against Monson and Wellisch and getting released, Anthony Perosh made his UFC return on a PPV, against the legend Cro Cop no less. This is just a small sample of the many fights/fighters of questionable nature that have appeared on UFC PPVs all along that one could argue have watered down the product.
It's also worth mentioning that if we go and look at a lot of today's more watered down cards, it's often because the card was originally supposed to be pretty stacked, but fighters had to pull out and other fights were scrapped, causing them to use replacement fights/fighters or even bump up prelim fights to the main card. UFC 170 is a great example of a stacked card that became a joke to many people. It wasn't by design. It wasn't the result of Joe Silva and Sean Shelby not being good at their job. It wasn't because they don't try to put out a good product. It was because Rashad Evans had to pull out of the fight. It was because Khabilov got injured and they had to pull RDA from the card. It was because Melendez couldn't reach a deal in time, so his planned fight with Nurmagomedov was scrapped. So they fill in the pieces the best they can.


I like how that "I'm not a shill!" is buried deep within a zuffa promo post
 
In the US its def not as popular as it was during their peak in 08-2010. And thats why they are pushing into new markets, Brazil, Mexico, Asia etc so they dont have to rely on just the US.

But yeah I dont think anyone can deny in the US its declined or it leveled out to what it really is in this country and always will be, a niche sport that once in a while will deliver a big card/fight that will be the biggest thing going on in sports for that night.

Also, the spike in popularity could be attributed to several factors all coming together at once. You had a tv deal with Spike, you had UFC Unleashed where people could become fans of some mid-card talent, you had guys from the TUF boom becoming title contenders/champions, you had several Pride fighters coming into the UFC, you had all of your older stars like Hughes, Penn, Liddell, Couture, etc. overlapping with guys like Silva, GSP, Machida, etc., you had Fedor coming to the US market and EliteXC on major network television, all helping the UFC (because what is good for the goose is good for the gander), and to top it all off, you had Brock Lesnar. There were other things as well. Some of these things are a big deal in and of themselves, but when a lot of these things were happening at once, you really had the perfect storm for a big spike in popularity for the UFC, and really MMA as a whole. It wasn't just limited to the UFC. There were multiple second tier promotions that were pretty popular.
 
I'm a football fan, I want to see Michigan play Stanford or Alabama vs Georgia. I don't want to see a division 2 football game. I want to see the best, I spent three hours watching the ncaa wrestling finals but I wouldn't walk to my local area high school to see a wrestling match. All this stuff about, "oh man I am just such a fight fan that I'll watch anyone fight" is so ridiculous to me. I love the UFC and I love seeing who the BEST guy is, I wanna watch title fights or top contender fights, and no I don't care to watch these type of cards, doesn't mean I'm not a fan.
A game that hasn't happened since the 1970s and one that probably happens once year 6 or so years now. You must be really frustrated with college football too. haha
 
Once they got banned, Cage Potato got banned they then become anti UFC sites attacking them.

Even the times they bring up legit points it comes off so anti Zuffa its crazy.

Same with the pro Zuffa journalists, people call them out for being shills even when they make a good point but few say the same thing when its the other way.

I agree. The Zuffa shills are indeed shills, but Cage Potato reads like a disgruntled ex. I haven't taken that site seriously in a long time.
 
The ufc needs more stars, and more gamblers drawn to the sport. One reason football and soccer are so popular is the amount of money people bet on the games. Real sports estimated 1.7 trillion is going to be gambled on this years world cup.
 
I like how that "I'm not a shill!" is buried deep within a zuffa promo post

It wasn't buried. I had an entire response talking about it.

1. Do you really think I'm a UFC plant?

2. Why does "Wall of text=UFC shill"? How is that comment even given any merit. Pretty much most of my posts are long, and I try to make them thought out. Doesn't matter if I'm talking about MMA, football, video games, work, or the weather. I have a lot to say, especially when debating something. Also, sometimes 140 characters or less isn't enough.

3. Calling somebody a shill or a plant seems like a tactic just used by Zuffa hate mongers to discredit people who actually like the product.

4. It's also a cheap tactic to avoid an actual discussion. If you actually read my posts, I'm not trying to sell the product to anyone. I'm not trying to encourage anyone to give it a try, like it more, or any of that crap. I'm just saying why I like it, pointing out the similarities in the cards from the past and the present that people pretend aren't there, and I actually like to load up my posts with actual facts. Maybe instead of ducking the issues and resort to tactics like calling somebody a plant, you know, actually agree or disagree with their points and tell them why.

5. If somebody lobs the word "shill" your way, if you ignore it, it's because you know they are right. If you respond to it, you're getting defensive. It's a double edged sword. But I want to talk about it. Let's talk about shills. If somebody wants to accuse me of being a shill, or anybody else, let's have it out. Don't come at me with cheap standby one liners. Come at me with some content. Somebody isn't going to call me a shill just because I'm long winded and I haven't done a full 180 and followed them into UFC hate mode. Maybe they are the shill. Some people hate on the product so hard, how do we know they aren't Bellator plants? Let's have it out. Come at me.
 
So a top 15 isn't a standing? Or a fight being a potential title eliminator isn't a reason?
What is it that you want then? You are saying you need more of a reason, what is it?

No. Top 15 isn't a standing. A standing has tangible ramifications, such as playoff slots.

And title eliminators are rare enough... let alone title eliminators that actually lead to actual title fights.

Which leaves aside the fact that we are talking about a slew of cards that have pretty much zero title significance... and that's precisely the problem.
 
No. Top 15 isn't a standing. A standing has tangible ramifications, such as playoff slots.

And title eliminators are rare enough... let alone title eliminators that actually lead to actual title fights.

Which leaves aside the fact that we are talking about a slew of cards that have pretty much zero title significance... and that's precisely the problem.
Pro combat sports don't have playoff slots. Rankings are their equivalent.

You're comment about title eliminators, doesn't answer anything. Do you not view a fight that is or appears to be a title eliminator as an intriguing fight?

A "slew" of cards...so how many cards should there be? Only 24? 20? 15? 32? Give the breakdown of them.

So only fights with title significance matter? That is really only the top 6-8 of each weight division and then fringe would be 9-12. How do they build up contenders then?
Do you feel the same way about other sports? Disregard the losing teams?

How do you expect a fight organization to hold cards without anyone outside of the top 12 on the fight cards?

If the UFC was to cut that many fighters, where do you think they'd go? Where do you think they'd get new fighters from?
 
Why do people repost shitty articles on here?
 
Take it easy… It was just an honest observation; I did not call anyone out. But if someone was working for the UFC public relations department I think they should know that they are doing a very bad job of it.

Question why is it when reading your post I feel like am reading a UFC infomercial I don’t remember anyone talking about Fight Pass?
 
I am at odds with the current state of affairs. Whilst I love the abundance of MMA on offer, I must admit that it is very rare these days that I get absolutely hyped for an entire card the way I used to when cards were fewer and more stacked.
 
The article in the OP is using the fight cards being held this weekend as examples for lower quality fight cards. Posters are doing the same. One of the cards is on Fight pass, it is in New Zealand. New Zealand is the focus, if you're in North America & want to watch you need fight pass or another method.

Thanks for the clarification.
 
I think other orgs should follow suit. I can't wait for the NBA to merge the D league into their own and start showing 10-15 games per day, 7 days a week.

May as well throw the WNBA teams into the mix as well, since if you are a true basketball fan you will only care about the game played, not who is playing.





Does this sound stupid? Because that's the UFC market.

This is the best post I've seen on this subject.
 
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