Deadlifts Back Or Leg Day? Neither

[bowlie]

Hence why the first thing I said was I don't believe in "leg days" or "back days".

I never claimed to be very smart. I just see people all the time with the question, when it' a loaded question.

Was it your video? You did say that first, and I agree, but you then did a whole video on things you agree are bad ways of doing it, and that don't work from a practical programming perspective.

Like I said, I feel like you wanted to share your insight about the back not being a prime mover, and the deadlift being partly a push, rather than a pull. Maybe I'm wrong - I don't know you.

 

[Oblivian]

Unless you're looking to work on technique, there's no reason to deadlift more than once a week. Squats will build up the strength needed for deadlfts just fine.

At least, such is my experience. I didn't train deadlift for over a year. Did it once in a blue moon when I felt like it. Hit my previous 1rm with ease three weeks after I started training deadlifts with actual intent again. Took three weeks mostly to regain technique and form.

I don't agree with this at all. I've seen quite a few people on here and elsewhere that made good gains deadlifting more than once a week or with a lot of volume.

 

[PCP63]

Was it your video? You did say that first, and I agree, but you then did a whole video on things you agree are bad ways of doing it, and that don't work from a practical programming perspective.

Like I said, I feel like you wanted to share your insight about the back not being a prime mover, and the deadlift being partly a push, rather than a pull. Maybe I'm wrong - I don't know you.

Actually, my real motivation for the video was my frustration with people teaching the DL as a "pull", which encourages athletes to utilize back extension. I think it's stupid to use body-part splits, but if people do, for the reason stated above, I believe it should be on "push" day, or "leg" day.

 

[Oblivian]

Actually, my real motivation for the video was my frustration with people teaching the DL as a "pull", which encourages athletes to utilize back extension. I think it's stupid to use body-part splits, but if people do, for the reason stated above, I believe it should be on "push" day, or "leg" day.

If you take a complete novice, I'm guessing you'd have more success explaining it as a pull to someone over a push. For people pulling sub 400 lbs, I think the most common mistake is to not understand that the biggest battle is not to let the weight pull you forward and to stay off of toes.

 

[MandirigmaFit]

Personally, I no longer structure my days around PL; now it is more for balance.

Everyday is programmed the same, as long as my fighters are not in camp, because when they are in camp, I train with the programming that I make for them.

In the off-season:
Circuit 1
Power
Pillar/Anti-Rotation
Prehab/Mobility
Circuit 2
Hinge
Push (Alternating Vertical/Horizontal days)
Prehab/Mobility
Circuit 3
Knee
Pull (Alternating Horizontal/Vertical days)
Prehab/Mobility

I alternate Sagittal/Frontal on most days and fit in Transverse when possible.

I can now squat deeper than ever before, have less pain and no longer feel the need to thug out my last rep of every set. After hitting 920# total @ 129#, I realized that I would need to get bigger if I wanted to get stronger, but it doesn't apply to my sports that have weight classes.

 

[PCP63]

Personally, I no longer structure my days around PL; now it is more for balance.

Everyday is programmed the same, as long as my fighters are not in camp, because when they are in camp, I train with the programming that I make for them.

In the off-season:
Circuit 1
Power
Pillar/Anti-Rotation
Prehab/Mobility
Circuit 2
Hinge
Push (Alternating Vertical/Horizontal days)
Prehab/Mobility
Circuit 3
Knee
Pull (Alternating Horizontal/Vertical days)
Prehab/Mobility

I alternate Sagittal/Frontal on most days and fit in Transverse when possible.

I can now squat deeper than ever before, have less pain and no longer feel the need to thug out my last rep of every set. After hitting 920# total @ 129#, I realized that I would need to get bigger if I wanted to get stronger, but it doesn't apply to my sports that have weight classes.

Looks pretty good to me. What is your favorite anti-rotation exercise? I love Pallof Press and variations of it. Fantastic exercise.

 

[Badger67]

I don't agree with this at all. I've seen quite a few people on here and elsewhere that made good gains deadlifting more than once a week or with a lot of volume.

Candito himself told me in a facebook post that a lot of powerlifters/athletes are steering away from every week deads in the traditional sense.
I've also noticed better luck with my own programming incorporating it once every 10-14 days from athletic perspectives.

It doesn't seem to be a new concept at this point i feel. But, i'd say if you can recover from it or it isn't super heavy, there likely isn't too many issues.

 

[Tosa]

Candito himself told me in a facebook post that a lot of powerlifters/athletes are steering away from every week deads in the traditional sense.

I'm not going to say he's wrong - and if he's speaking about what he subjectively perceives to be a trend, then he can't be. But I will say that among the people I train with and talk to, I haven't seen any evidence of this.

 

[Badger67]

He is more so speaking of what he himself was seeing yeah.

I've noticed for myself i recover better with less deadlifting frequency, and a number of athletes i coach and teams i see at my university have depending on what part of the season, shied away from it a bit.
Keep in mind, these athletes are doing 1-3 a days (usually rowers, wrestlers, and mma fighters) plus competition on weekend. Off season is different entirely.
My buddy Kevin helps with the Niagara Lions and the Uni B-ball team as a trainer and says half don't deadlift period. Heck, half don't even press.

 

[Badger67]

If it's not hindering recovery i don't see the issue with someone deadlifting weekly, but i know for myself and people who have to do several sessions a day this can be a difficult task.

 

[selfcritical]

I don't agree with this at all. I've seen quite a few people on here and elsewhere that made good gains deadlifting more than once a week or with a lot of volume.

Me among them. In the period after my rehab, i used high frequency, high volume submaximal deadlifting a LOT (because I couldn't squat for shit for a long time)

 

[PCP63]

He is more so speaking of what he himself was seeing yeah.

I've noticed for myself i recover better with less deadlifting frequency, and a number of athletes i coach and teams i see at my university have depending on what part of the season, shied away from it a bit.
Keep in mind, these athletes are doing 1-3 a days (usually rowers, wrestlers, and mma fighters) plus competition on weekend. Off season is different entirely.
My buddy Kevin helps with the Niagara Lions and the Uni B-ball team as a trainer and says half don't deadlift period. Heck, half don't even press.

Exactly this. In-season, IMO, athletes should do DLs less frequently. More frequently off-season.

I DL weekly now, but when I would be in-season as an athlete, I often did it every 2 weeks or so.

Just due to the skill aspect involved, I like my PLers to DL weekly, though, even if at just moderate intensities (rarely ever go light or heavy on deads, probably the only lift I do little undulation).

 

[selfcritical]

He is more so speaking of what he himself was seeing yeah.

I've noticed for myself i recover better with less deadlifting frequency, and a number of athletes i coach and teams i see at my university have depending on what part of the season, shied away from it a bit.
Keep in mind, these athletes are doing 1-3 a days (usually rowers, wrestlers, and mma fighters) plus competition on weekend. Off season is different entirely.
My buddy Kevin helps with the Niagara Lions and the Uni B-ball team as a trainer and says half don't deadlift period. Heck, half don't even press.

Is this including all DL variations? With sumo in particular (much less block pulls), recovery/adaptation curves should be much shorter, as you aren't putting as much stress on the lower back. Particularly if you stay south of 90 percent of 1RM.

 

[Badger67]

Is this including all DL variations? With sumo in particular (much less block pulls), recovery/adaptation curves should be much shorter, as you aren't putting as much stress on the lower back. Particularly if you stay south of 90 percent of 1RM.

For me, i can do some rack pulls weekly, or SLD @ 50-70% and probably be fine for recovery. And i intend to once my mobility improves. SLD's are not my strong suit and i need to do a lot more release to achieve them.

As for the teams and athletes i was just speaking of, i don't think many know what a rack pull is, and few work on mobility or SLD. They'd sooner do low back raises and DB rows. The smarter athletes, program power cleans/snatches. Deadlifts themselves tend to be savored for out of season or during the in between season phase ramping up towards the major competitions. Many also don't know what sumo is, or double pronated grip or deficit deads etc.

Many athletes barely have any comprehension of exercise selection outside of the generic brands so to speak, you almost have to show them or tell them specifically what to do, and many have this attitude of always lift heavy and do more (took me two years to get my main athlete out of this habit).
One of the wrestlers in my class still does bicep curls on a bosu, and this after taking training principles as a class with me (which was program creating heavy on a weekly basis). So there is also the athlete preference within this large disconnect.

 

[PCP63]

I find that if I stay within about a 68-72% RI (as in Sheiko), I and my athletes can conventional DL weekly and indefinitely with very little problems. Doesn't hinder recovery, enough to elicit strength gains, good amount of volume, lots of technique practice.

 

[Tosa]

I think, to some degree, the idea of deadlifts as a super taxing exercise that can only be performed infrequently is self fulfilling. If it's the main lift where you are handling the greatest loads, then the total volume will be lower, and recovery more important, but not to a disproportionate degree.

 

[jrams]

I think, to some degree, the idea of deadlifts as a super taxing exercise that can only be performed infrequently is self fulfilling. If it's the main lift where you are handling the greatest loads, then the total volume will be lower, and recovery more important, but not to a disproportionate degree.

I don't understand where it comes from. It's not like deadlifts are so much heavier than squats, but the trend is to squat every day and to deadlift almost never because they are too "taxing". I think for a lot of people like me, who have a shitty posterior chain, that I should be deadlifting way more often than once a week.

edit:
and for weightlifters, they do snatch/clean pulls pretty much every day. Sometimes multiple times a day and they seem to survive fine.

 

[Tosa]

For some individuals, deadlifts are quite a bit heavier than squats, for others they are quite close. If there's some degree of rounding, or they're jerking the bar off the ground, that could make a deadlift require more recovery for some individuals. Olympic lifts would be done with lighter loads, and less room for any kind of technical break down, so recovery would be easier there - I know very good deadlifters who deadlift 2-3 weekly, but that's half the frequency of how often a good weightlifter might pull.

But I just know to many people, including very good deadlifters, who deadlift more often than once a week, to buy into the idea that they should necessarily be trained less often. That's not to say they can't successfully be trained less often, though.

 

[jrams]

What do you consider "quite a bit heavier"?

It's probably just because I have a terrible deadlift, but I can't reason in my head why it is so much more taxing than squatting. My deadlift is light enough that I can go "heavy" 3x a week and feel fine like I would do with my squats. There's nothing forcing me, or anyone else, to go heavy every time with their deadlifts. But the suggestion feels like madness for deadlifts.

 

[Tosa]

I know one 74kg guy with a 160kg squat and 240kg deadlift - that's probably the most disproportionate example out of people I know. One look at the length of his arms and you'd know why, and I'd expect the difference to become smaller over time. Or a 66kg guy with a 270kg deadlift, and a squat around 200kg (I can't recall the exact weight). And some more with a difference of around 50kg.

That's not to say you should be able to deadlift more than you squat. I know people who train both very hard, and lift about the same in both.