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Deadlift help

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by Evil Eye Gouger, Aug 14, 2005.

  1. Evil Eye Gouger

    Evil Eye Gouger Gold Belt

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    I think I've figured out the problem I have with the deadlift and which resulted in pulling my back at my last max attempt (150kg) and a long break from back work.

    I seem to have a problem getting the bar off the ground. When the weight gets heavy, my hips shoot up first without moving the bar. The result is that my lower back gets a handfull all of a sudden and has to compensate. Once the bar is above the knees, the lockout is ridiculously easy. I've never had even the slightest problem with lockout. Getting the bar moving, on the other hand, is a huge issue.

    I figure the problem is the legs, and after spending a session trying to isolate the problem, I'm pretty sure it's the legs. They struggle to get the weight up, which leads to leaning over and overcompensating with my lower back, as I said. As an example, I last managed a set of 5 Zercher squats at 90kg. On the other hand, I deadlifted 130 for 5 around the same time (not today).

    So I figure I need to do more leg work to improve it? I switched to a westside for skinny bastards routine recently, and my lower body day consists of deadlifts, bulgarian squats and pull-throughs. Doing more than one leg/back intensive day is not a good idea because it doesn't jive well with my (mostly kicking) TKD training, making it hard to recover in time.

    Should I alternate deadlifts with a squat variant (no squat rack, but I can do Zerchers, front squats and the like)? Should I replace deadlifts with a squat variant and work really hard on deep squatting for a while till the legs catch up? Should I add a squat variant to the leg day before Bulgarian squats? I appreciate suggestions.

    Another thing. I feel a pull in my hip flexors when deadlifting (or squatting) heavy. I assume it has to be a result of tilting my pelvis forward and keeping my back arched. Should I strengthen my hip flexors? Stretch the glutes/hamstrings? Any advice?
     
  2. rEmY

    rEmY Needs to eat more

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    i had the same problem, my hips would come up waaay too fast. somebody here (i think it was nerd king) recommend that i do front squats. so after my deadlift sets, id do 3X6-8 on front squats. i found that this helped a lot. my legs were able to handle more of the load rather than just relying on my back.
     
  3. Fedorable

    Fedorable 1/1024th Mod

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    i could DL 300 lbs pretty easy, but I couldn't budge 315 off the floor, not one bit, and I re-assessed my form and I was still-legging my DL way too much. I fixed the problem and 315 was pretty easy, I haven't maxed out since though, but I am shooting for 325 to 335.
     
  4. Fedorable

    Fedorable 1/1024th Mod

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    i could DL 300 lbs pretty easy, but I couldn't budge 315 off the floor, not one bit, and I re-assessed my form and I was still-legging my DL way too much. I fixed the problem and 315 was pretty easy, I haven't maxed out since though, but I am shooting for 325 to 335.
     
  5. Fedorable

    Fedorable 1/1024th Mod

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    I could double post really easily until I payed attention to what I was doing.
     
  6. gruesome

    gruesome Green Belt

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    Fedorable, your deadlift numbers are only surpassed by your uncanny wit....


    To EEG, do what remy says, should do the trick. It also depends how you squat and dl(pl/oly squats, regular/sumo dl's). I think that doing certain variations of the above develop a different weakness.

    In reference to the skinny bastard program, in my expert opinion, which is worth shit. There wasnt nearly enough leg work.
     
  7. Evil Eye Gouger

    Evil Eye Gouger Gold Belt

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    Conventional DL here, wide stance squats.

    I've played with sumo a bit and found that I'm equally good at them. I think I have a good body type for sumo (long legs and arms) but I've always understood that regular DLs were better for overall athleticism, so I do those.

    Seems like that, but all the major muscle groups are hit. I do TKD 4-5 times a week and recovery is really an issue when doing legs more than once a week (as I used to do with my fullbody programme).

    If I add front squats or Zerchers, that should add some extra leg work which should hopefully translate to deadlift.
     
  8. gruesome

    gruesome Green Belt

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    From what I've found, ignoring direct(in a compound form) quad work will hinder regular dl performance with a pl style squat. I've done this getting caught up in the post chain heavy workouts...

    If you are adding to your WSFSB program, I'd say front squats hands down. They are quite different from Zerchers, and I'd make a large wager that your DL woud benefit much more from them(as Zerchers really dont hit quads).
     
  9. rEmY

    rEmY Needs to eat more

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    it should be noted that WSFSB goes with the assumption that that person doing it will be doing a lot of sprints/running/drills as well therefore only one leg day.
     
  10. Cain

    Cain Yellow Belt

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    Focus on holding your ass low and almost leaning backwards, pressing the heals trough the floor and pressing the hip forward and upwards when the bar is around knee-height. simple.. ;) work technique on semi-heavy weights.. a lot, and get someone qualified to look at you!
     
  11. Ted-P

    Ted-P Brown Belt

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    Yea I agree with Cain.

    Get weight you are comfortable with and do what Cain said.

    worked for me.

    I soon am gonna incorporate DL's into the workout now.
     
  12. Evil Eye Gouger

    Evil Eye Gouger Gold Belt

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    I wouldn't purport that my deadlift form is awesome, but I really don't have trouble with semi-heavy weights. My form is fine with lower weights.

    The trouble starts as I get close to my 5RM and as much as I try, I can't maintain the proper form. If I maintain the proper form, I don't move an inch, and neither does the bar, so I end up overcompensating with my lower back. This is a problem, and I believe my legs need work to fix this.
     
  13. Ted-P

    Ted-P Brown Belt

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    I don't know.

    Maybe leg work is needed, but this is could also mean your back is too weak as an stabilizer to keep your back straight while going up.

    Actually both probably need work.
     
  14. Evil Eye Gouger

    Evil Eye Gouger Gold Belt

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    Today I concentrated on the form. On my last set, I immediately dropped any attempt where the form went bad.

    I found out that if I concentrated on clean form instead of getting the weight up, damn the consequences (like before), that my lower back was stiff and solid, and my legs were shaking and struggling. My deadlifts used to look very SLDL-ish: straighten legs, pull with the back. So I don't think it's the back. But I'm open for suggestions.
     
  15. Ted-P

    Ted-P Brown Belt

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    I guess its the legs then.

    Front squats baby.
     
  16. rickdog

    rickdog Purple Belt

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    I will second one of the earlier posters. I had similar struggles with my technique in the DL and most of the problems came at the begining of the lift. FRONT SQUATS were key in helping eliminate this problem. If you're so inclined, give them a shot and let us know how it goes.

    Good luck!

    UGH, TEDP you beat me to the post. As long as we agree then all is well.
     
  17. Lusst

    Lusst Red Belt

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    I dunno man, I would suggest to try narrowing your stance, to where your legs are inside your arms. Perhaps its just the way I have squatted all those years, but if I try to sumo a DL, I just cant get that bastard off the ground.
     
  18. Mark Limbaga

    Mark Limbaga Amateur Fighter

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    have you tried doing more posterior chain work and doing deads off a platform?
     
  19. Cain

    Cain Yellow Belt

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    My tips is doing a lot of low-weight deadlifts where you focus on form and using your legs in the bottom part of the lift, doing the "i lift heavy no matter the consequenses" is just going to hurt your back in the long run. Just use the weight up to the point where your form gets bad and you'll gradually increase this point. That is my advice, may take some time, but in the long run you'll gain more and lift better. (and you'll keep your back healthy)
     
  20. Evil Eye Gouger

    Evil Eye Gouger Gold Belt

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    My DLs are conventional and my stance is not very wide.

    Yeah, this is exactly what I'm doing now. It's not that I wanted to lift heavy no matter the consequences before -- I took months working up to my max -- but I found out that, as I approached my 1RM, my form suffered.

    I'm simply looking for assistance exercises which will help my weak point, which seems to be my legs.
     

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