Darth Vader vs Yoda

[SowingSeason]

The reason Vader could sense Luke specifically, was because he had felt his real life presence when they fought in Empire. They had a father/son bond. Luke could sense Vader's presence as well.



Vader turning on Palpatine had nothing to do with Vader having a stronger connection with the force, and everything to do with Luke exploiting his father's weakness. Anakin was a slave to his emotions, and mentally weak.

The reason Vader turned on Palpatine, was because seeing his son being tortured, turned him back to the light side. This was almost identical to the way Palpatine initially turned Anakin to the Dark Side in Revenge of the Sith. When Anakin saw Palpatine "dying", he saw all hope for Padme, dying with him. Therefore, he was forced to save Palpatine.

Palpatine could not foresee Vader betraying him because he could not believe something like that could be possible. Remember when Yoda told him, "Your arrogance blinds you"?



Vader never became the strongest in any aspect of the force.



"Kenobi was regarded as the greatest master of the passive style Soresu in the Jedi Order, and his absolute dedication to it would prove vital to his victory. Vader, frustrated by his inability to break through this defense, began making mistakes and leaving openings that he otherwise would have avoided had he remained focused and patient. Kenobi, similar to his duel with Grievous, would utilize his "wait them out" philosophy, relying entirely on the defensive and energy-conservative moves until the opponent became frustrated or fatigued, causing them to leave sloppy openings in their offense that Kenobi could then exploit. This, along with some tactically questionable decisions, resulted in Vader's defeat and severe mutilation."

Obi-Wan lost the rematch on purpose. "You can't win, Vader. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Obi-Wan's intention was to become one with Force. That's why his body disappeared.



His "feats" don't accurately represent his strength. He was never the best lightsaber duelist, the strongest Force user, or the most powerful anything.



Vader in the suit was the weaker version.

More patience and wisdom? The opposite actually.

"The Emperor, having gone out of his way to keep Vader alive, took an alternative viewpoint. Though it was true to say that he had not bargained for an apprentice that was "more machine than man", Palpatine was of the opinion that most of the limitations on Vader's potential power were not physical but psychological. He believed that, were Vader to fully confront his choices completely shake himself out of his despair, he would have been able to reawaken the incredible power of the Chosen One within him. To an extent, this was true: once he got used to his armor and re-tooled his fighting style, Vader became an incredibly powerful Sith Lord. However, he would always be haunted to varying degrees by the choices he had made, even to the point of what amounted to temporary insanity during his mission to Atoa. Thus, while Vader made progress in this regard, he was never fully able to accept who and what he had become, and therefore never fulfilled his potential. Sidious would ultimately come to realize that Vader would never be the apprentice he longed for. He would try to replace him on at least two occasions with more powerful Force-sensitives, Galen Marek and Luke Skywalker. The Prophets of the Dark Side also saw Vader as too much of a Jedi to truly embrace the Dark side."

He was emotionally unstable, and always gave into his rage while fighting. He was incredibly slow and clumsy, and often got outclassed by quicker more agile duelists.



The eye lens acted as optical filters, allowing for Vader to expand the limits of human vision by detecting infrared and ultraviolet wavelengths, while also blocking out excess light, due to the inability to repair Vader's damaged retinas.



I'm sure Yoda would have beaten him as well.



The prophecy was that he would restore balance to the force, which he eventually did, not that he would be the GOAT Jedi.

You are the coolest dude on Sherdog. Real talk.

 

[SafyreSchool**]

I see your point watching that video.
The blast was indeed even.

But Yoda himself also says he failed, and he clearly ran away form the fight.
I would have thought a warrior of yoda's stature would fight to the death to kill someone as bad as palpatine, but instead he just gets winded and runs away.
I thought the plan was established beforehand that he would escape, but now I see he called for help, so in theory, he could have stayed and fought palpatine, but he choose to run instead.

 

[SafyreSchool**]

"The Emperor, having gone out of his way to keep Vader alive, took an alternative viewpoint. Though it was true to say that he had not bargained for an apprentice that was "more machine than man", Palpatine was of the opinion that most of the limitations on Vader's potential power were not physical but psychological. He believed that, were Vader to fully confront his choices completely shake himself out of his despair, he would have been able to reawaken the incredible power of the Chosen One within him. To an extent, this was true: once he got used to his armor and re-tooled his fighting style, Vader became an incredibly powerful Sith Lord. However, he would always be haunted to varying degrees by the choices he had made, even to the point of what amounted to temporary insanity during his mission to Atoa. Thus, while Vader made progress in this regard, he was never fully able to accept who and what he had become, and therefore never fulfilled his potential. Sidious would ultimately come to realize that Vader would never be the apprentice he longed for. He would try to replace him on at least two occasions with more powerful Force-sensitives, Galen Marek and Luke Skywalker. The Prophets of the Dark Side also saw Vader as too much of a Jedi to truly embrace the Dark side."


The eye lens acted as optical filters, allowing for Vader to expand the limits of human vision by detecting infrared and ultraviolet wavelengths, while also blocking out excess light, due to the inability to repair Vader's damaged retinas.

Who is Galen Marek, what is Atoa, and where, in any of the films does it say anything about vader's "optical filters" in his eyes?
You're a butthurt star wars fans who is pulling ret-conned and backward information from books, games and outside sources to compensate for lousy film writing.

 

[MajinSaga**]

I definitely wouldn't try arguing with Palpatine on anything Star Wars related. He's basically a living Star Wars encyclopedia.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

Who is Galen Marek, what is Atoa, and where, in any of the films does it say anything about vader's "optical filters" in his eyes?
You're a butthurt star wars fans who is pulling ret-conned and backward information from books, games and outside sources to compensate for lousy film writing.

What's the point of making it personal, especially on dubbs?

 

[SafyreSchool**]

Huh, butthurt about what exactly?

The OP asked who would in a fight. Being that this is a hypothetical scenario, I included information from the expanded universe, which has a lot of background and history, with my opinion. I don't quite see how lousy film writing has anything to do with this.

The "expanded universe" is a convoluted shithole.
Why don't we just include lego star wars in this conversation while we're at it?

I'm referencing butthurt because you wrote 10 paragraphs which required you to stray out of the films to make a valid point... the lousy film part was also part of that reason. No one can talk about star wars without bringing up the "expanded universe" because otherwise, it's plot holes, gaps and inconsistencies.

 

[SafyreSchool**]

What's the point of making it personal, especially on dubbs?

I was using butthurt as an endearment.

-and what is that? A veiled threat?
Calling someone butthurt gets a ban?
That's good to know.

 

[Fishmonger]

I see your point watching that video.
The blast was indeed even.

But Yoda himself also says he failed, and he clearly ran away form the fight.
I would have thought a warrior of yoda's stature would fight to the death to kill someone as bad as palpatine, but instead he just gets winded and runs away.
I thought the plan was established beforehand that he would escape, but now I see he called for help, so in theory, he could have stayed and fought palpatine, but he choose to run instead.

Once Yoda fell off that disk so far off that disk, he fled. It's debatable if he would have if he had not fallen so far from where he was (dueling with Palpatine.) If I'm recollecting correctly, there were important external reasons why Yoda left that room in which he and Palpatine were dueling when he did. It wasn't until he fell that Yoda chose to leave the fight. He knew that it would require too much time to ascend to where Palpatine was, reengage him, and continue fighting. Yoda only had that one small window of opportunity, which incidentally resulted in him receiving the farther of the two falls between him and Palpatine.

I am in accord with you about Yoda failing to kill Palpatine and losing in the overall sense; however, I still maintain that he didn't lose that particular skirmish.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

I was using butthurt as an endearment.

-and what is that? A veiled threat?
Calling someone butthurt gets a ban?
That's good to know.

You're the only one being defensive here. Even lashing out at someone's well written out response in which he/she was nothing but respectful in their response.

Anyone reading your 'butt hurt' comment would take it as you making something personal out of this.

All I am saying is, considering the subforum you are in and the fact that you are on dubbs, you might want to be careful in the personal remarks.

 

[SafyreSchool**]

You're the only one being defensive here. Even lashing out at someone's well written out response in which he/she was nothing but respectful in their response.

Anyone reading your 'butt hurt' comment would take it as you making something personal out of this.

I don't have anything personal against anyone here.
I'm sure they're all great people in real life.

I just find it annoying that star wars has been reduced to this expanded universe of nonsense.
It's a shame, really.

 

[VanteMMA]

I don't have anything personal against anyone here.
I'm sure they're all great people in real life.

I just find it annoying that star wars has been reduced to this expanded universe of nonsense.
It's a shame, really.

Havent read the whole thread but just felt like pointing out that THAT is one oxymoron of a sentence!!

 

[Cptn1NSAN0]

Sounds like SafyreSchool needs to run along home to Middle Earth.

 

[Fat Abbot]

The reason Vader could sense Luke specifically, was because he had felt his real life presence when they fought in Empire. They had a father/son bond. Luke could sense Vader's presence as well.

They were always father and son. Yet Palps initially sensed who he was, Vader didn't. Vader grew stronger in the force and was able to sense Luke on endor, whereas palps this time couldnt.

Vader turning on Palpatine had nothing to do with Vader having a stronger connection with the force, and everything to do with Luke exploiting his father's weakness. Anakin was a slave to his emotions, and mentally weak.

The reason Vader turned on Palpatine, was because seeing his son being tortured, turned him back to the light side. This was almost identical to the way Palpatine initially turned Anakin to the Dark Side in Revenge of the Sith. When Anakin saw Palpatine "dying", he saw all hope for Padme, dying with him. Therefore, he was forced to save Palpatine.

Luke didn't exploit anything. Luke was his son, since Padme was gone luke and leia were his only family left. They'd go onto carry on anakins line, vader knew this. Siding with him over an evil creep who kept trying to replace him is a no brainer. Yet Palps couldn't see it coming, the dude that blindsided everyone in the galaxy (the jedi, plaguis) got blindsided himself by vader.

Palpatine could not foresee Vader betraying him because he could not believe something like that could be possible. Remember when he tells Yoda, "Your arrogance blinds you"? and Yoda replies, "Faith in your new apprentice, misplaced may be. As is your faith in the dark side of the Force." Turns out Yoda was right, and it was Palpatine who was in fact blinded by arrogance.

Agree with some of this, just shows that arrogance wasnt just anakins weakness.

Vader craved power just as much as palps, again palps shoulda seen it coming. According to the philosophy of rule of 2 if the master can't see the apprentices betrayal coming then the apprentice overtook him and becomes the true master. The fact that palps didnt think it was possible only reinforces that like Plagueis before him palps got played.

Vader never became the strongest in any aspect of the force.

In the end his sense was stronger and he outsideous'd sideous. Beat him at his own game: deception all the while before that made him overconfident in believing that as you said "it wasn't possible."

"Kenobi was regarded as the greatest master of the passive style Soresu in the Jedi Order, and his absolute dedication to it would prove vital to his victory. Vader, frustrated by his inability to break through this defense, began making mistakes and leaving openings that he otherwise would have avoided had he remained focused and patient. Kenobi, similar to his duel with Grievous, would utilize his "wait them out" philosophy, relying entirely on the defensive and energy-conservative moves until the opponent became frustrated or fatigued, causing them to leave sloppy openings in their offense that Kenobi could then exploit. This, along with some tactically questionable decisions, resulted in Vader's defeat and severe mutilation."

Obi-Wan lost the rematch on purpose. "You can't win, Vader. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Obi-Wan's intention was to become one with Force. That's why his body disappeared.

If obi could have won the rematch he would have tried. Vader was just way too powerful, as vader said "now I'm the master." And Obi didn't need to throw it just to become one with the force, he would have anyway, just as qui gonn had when he got killed or vader himself when he died.

Obi had nothing for him.

Anakin lost the 1st time because he was young and arrogant and as I said obi was the worst matchup for him. Him winning the rematch in a much easier fashion and him destroying dooku who easily owned obi twice shows he was a vastly superior duelist. Plus he beat better comp overall.

His "feats" don't accurately represent his strength. He was never the best lightsaber duelist, the strongest Force user, or the most powerful anything.

He was as good with a lightsaber as anyone in the universe. Dooku was one of the best duelists by far with a lightsabre and anakin sliced through him like a hot knife through butter. That was the easiest most decisive win in the movies over any lightsabre duelist of that calibur.

As far s the force goes, he pulled the wool over the eyes of palps who himself pulled the wool over everyone elses eyes in the sw's universe, so his connection to the force became pretty immense.

Vader in the suit was the weaker version.

In some ways, others no.

More patience and wisdom? The opposite actually.

"The Emperor, having gone out of his way to keep Vader alive, took an alternative viewpoint. Though it was true to say that he had not bargained for an apprentice that was "more machine than man", Palpatine was of the opinion that most of the limitations on Vader's potential power were not physical but psychological. He believed that, were Vader to fully confront his choices completely shake himself out of his despair, he would have been able to reawaken the incredible power of the Chosen One within him. To an extent, this was true: once he got used to his armor and re-tooled his fighting style, Vader became an incredibly powerful Sith Lord. However, he would always be haunted to varying degrees by the choices he had made, even to the point of what amounted to temporary insanity during his mission to Atoa. Thus, while Vader made progress in this regard, he was never fully able to accept who and what he had become, and therefore never fulfilled his potential. Sidious would ultimately come to realize that Vader would never be the apprentice he longed for. He would try to replace him on at least two occasions with more powerful Force-sensitives, Galen Marek and Luke Skywalker. The Prophets of the Dark Side also saw Vader as too much of a Jedi to truly embrace the Dark side."

He was emotionally unstable, and always gave into his rage while fighting. He was incredibly slow and clumsy, and often got outclassed by quicker more agile duelists.

I agree that it was mostly mental. Vader was so powerful he couldve just healed himself. As is palps was slightly stronger when anakin was in the suit for most of the timeline. But the force simply became stronger with him in the end, when it mattered.

I don't really care about that eu crap. I'll talk about starkiller and luke though. Since Force unleashed is official canon. Starkiller lost to and did beat vader yeah, but he also beat palps. Marek was really powerful. As for Luke him and vader were the strongest potentials in the universe, if he'd bullrushed palps like he did vader he had a good chance of fucking him up bad too. Furthermore on Lukes power, Mace Windu who was considered one of the strongest duelists tasted palps lightning without his sabre he was dead instantly well before he even hit the ground, Luke actually took it. No shame in losing to him, moreover Vader may not have been 100% intent on hurting his son and since the dark side is fueled by hate he may not have been at his most effective.

The eye lens acted as optical filters, allowing for Vader to expand the limits of human vision by detecting infrared and ultraviolet wavelengths, while also blocking out excess light, due to the inability to repair Vader's damaged retinas.

His vision seemed alright pto me when he was looking at luke in rotj

I'm sure Yoda would have beaten him as well.

Highly doubtful, Yoda never beat anyone great, let anyone anyone as powerful as vader or even close. Only 2 sith he fought that were around vaders level in power in tyrannous and sideous yoda couldn't do better than a draw. Both of those Sith Lords Vader himself killed.

In the suit or without it Vader wins.

 

[Fat Abbot]

You forgot Grievous.

4-3 record.

Nothing special. Couldn't even use the force. Just a strong dude. Vader slaughtered a gajillion wookies in force unleashed, doesnt really mean much

If a flee counts as a win, he beat Dooku. 1-1 by my reckoning.

Yoda couldnt get the better of dooku in any aspect when they fought and if dooku had stayed he would have had to fight the entire jedi order. For these reasons I don't consider it a flee.

Neither was as physically crippled as Darth Vader. Scion was broken and remade as part of his power, and Nihilus became like...a literal embodiment of the absence of light.

Darth Vader was the equivalent of a wheelchair basketball player being able to compete in the NBA.

Not just compete, become one of, if not the goat. He was one of the most powerful sith lords in history and killed 2 of the most powerful sith lords in history.

 

[MysticNinjaJay]

The prophecy was that he would restore balance to the force, which he eventually did, not that he would be the GOAT Jedi.

Good point. In fact looking back on it Palpatine was the one who kept putting the idea in his head that he would be the most powerful of all Jedi grooming him to be his future apprentice and this influenced Anakin in to being arrogant and obsessed with his own growth. His force potential was an indicator to the Jedi that he would bring balance to the force but the prophecy never said he would be the most powerful Jedi or have no equal. In fact for all we know Anakin Skywalker could be surpassed one day. The force could even fall out of balance again.

 

[Fat Abbot]

Used four lightsabres at once. Was mechanically enhanced from a warrior body that was already dramatically powerful. Killed dozens of Jedi during the Clone Wars (thus his extensive collection of sabres)...

I'd say Grievous, on paper, is at least equivalent to a Jedi master.

He's a definite level below a top jedi master or a sith lord.

Moreso on a level with a Boba Fett than anything.

Decent win, but he's not on the level of guys like vader, maul, dooku,

I do not think that Dooku was worried that he was going to be overtaken by the Jedi order. Yoda doesn't seem to be willing to fight unfair.

Dooku had nothing on Yoda. He was, at best, holding his ground - but he was clearly not capable of using the Dark Side to screw over Yoda like he thought. See the deflected force lightning and the other things Yoda was able to do.

Are you kidding? in war against the sith the jedi could be dirty as fuck. Look at Mace Windu the no 2 jedi when he confronted palps, he had 3 other jedi knights with him. 4-1. If Dooku werent concerned he was an idiot, but he was which is why he fled.

Dooku redeflected the lightning easily as well. Again they wre each at a standstill neither could get the edge over the other in any aspect. Yoda did have the tachtical advantage though, anakin and kenobi were still there and were going to recover sooner or later, plus the other jedi were on their way. Dooku did the smart thing, it was an obvious lose lose.

Yoda was in control and forced Dooku to flee. That is at least equivalent to Yoda crawling away from Palpatine.

Not at all, yoda wasnt in control. Palps was against yoda, he was laughing for most of the fight and on the offensive and the final lightning blast damaged yoda more than vice versa. plus palps didnt have a bunch of sith on their way as reinforcements.

He killed a mid-tier Sith lord (Dooku) and killed the greatest Sith lord (Palpatine) while he was distracted and using the force to torture someone else.

Mid tier? Dooku was one of the top 10 of all time, perhaps top 5. That aint mid tier. That's uppper echelon.

It wasn't as if Palpatine and him duked it out and he OVERCAME Palpatine.

No, he deciecved him. Just as Palps did his master Plagueis.

 

[Fishmonger]

The prophecy was that he would restore balance to the force, which he eventually did, not that he would be the GOAT Jedi.

I'm not stating my opinion when I ask this, so do not read it as such...Did Anakin/Vader really restore balance to the force, or was it Luke because he converted his father back to the good/light side?

 

[Fat Abbot]

Let us also note that being exposed to a mere few seconds of Palpatine's residual Force Lightning was enough to kill Vader.

Yoda deflected Force Lightning on multiple occasions. Hell, Palpatine suffered his OWN lightning for significantly longer, as did Luke.

It was a combo of the beating from luke and the lightning.

 

[Fat Abbot]

Who did Yoda fear? Palpatine. He feared Palpatine. He did not fear a healthy Anakin Skywalker. He let Obi deal with that.

Vader was stronger in the force and he obviously feared vader as well. That's why he hid on dagobah while vader was off killing he last remaining jedi. If he thought he could stop him he would have tried.

 

[Fishmonger]

Vader was stronger in the force and he obviously feared vader as well. That's why he hid on dagobah while vader was off killing he last remaining jedi. If he thought he could stop him he would have tried.

Or, he knew that he wouldn't have another opportunity to face Palpatine. So, he hid from being found.