Darth Vader vs Yoda

[Fishmonger]

Not at all, yoda wasnt in control. Palps was against yoda, he was laughing for most of the fight and on the offensive and the final lightning blast damaged yoda more than vice versa. plus palps didnt have a bunch of sith on their way as reinforcements.

Palpatine laughed because he was pompous. The fight was even.

Palpatine grimaces more than Yoda during the lightsaber battle. Does that mean he is unquestionably inferior? That's similarly flawed logic to claiming "Palpatine laughed while fighting Yoda; therefore, he was stronger than Yoda."

Even during the lightning exchange, Palpatine's facial expression becomes one of concern and perhaps fear. The subsequent blast evenly affected both of them. Yoda was standing on top of the hovering disk, while Palpatine was situated on the floor inside of it. When the blast hits both of them, they are thrown back in opposite directions. Yoda plummets because of his prior location. The emperor is able to hang on because of his prior location and his body length.

 

[Fat Abbot]

This doesn't make Vader stronger - it makes him CRAFTIER. Or at the very least: Craftier at the very moment Palpatine was his most weak.

Palpatine was using all his force power to murder Luke slowly before his father's eyes. Vader took the initiative, moved by his emotions and the Light side, to throw Sidious into the reactor.

This was not a testament to Vader being stronger than Palpatine objectively.

To the sith craftier is the same thing as being stronger. If you can blindside your master then he wasnt your master, his connection to the force is obviously not as strong.

I disagree. Considering he doesn't even raise his sabre to block the kill shot, and Vader seems PERPLEXED by this - he actually kicks the robe to see if it was some trick - seems to implied he purposefully sacrificed himself. After all, the duel was entirely for the purpose of Luke and co's escape.

Vader beat him easily. If obi could have won he could have won a major victory for the republic, but he didnt.

The ROTS novel actually implies Palpatine was helping Anakin take on Dooku. Plus, Dooku was once again having to fight TWO Jedi in that fight. And it required Anakin using the Dark Side to fight him as a Jedi.

It seems that when Light Side Jedi first use the Dark Side they are highly more powerful for that brief moment. Luke utterly BATTERED Vader when he gave into his anger, literally FORCING him to his knees and then CUTTING OFF HIS HAND.

Obi was taken out before the fight even really began, its a bit of a stretch to say it was 2 on 1.

Palps didnt do shit.

Luke and anakin were incredibly powerful and I agree they were both pretty deadly... at those moments they could have beaten anyone.

His conversion was literally at that very moment. I don't think that counts as "pulling the wool over someone's eyes".

You can see in the scene Vader vacillating between his loyalty to Palpatine and the urgings of the Light Side and his love for his son.

It certainly does, because a true master can see it coming. palps didnt.

I find it highly, highly unlikely, he could have ever healed himself. The extent of his injuries were immense. The guy was more or less a nervous system attached to a few bones and one or two working organs.

Vader like jesus had no father, he was the living embodyment of the force itself, besides his descendants he was the strongest potentially in the history of the universe. If Scion could do it he could have done it better. His head just wasnt screwed on right after losing padme.

The Force Unleashed is secondary canon, like all video games. It is on par with other EU.

Nope. It's main canon, the other games are secondary, unleashed is as canon as the movies.

 

[Fat Abbot]

He certainly was fatigued from being beat by Luke, but he only suffered the injury of having his mechanical hand cut off.

Vader was still so crippled he could not withstand what several other Force users did: Survive prolonged Force lightning

Survivors of Force lightning:

Yoda (deflected and absorbed!)
Palpatine (his own at what appeared to be maximum power)
Luke (tortured to near death).

He was more than fatigued.

Just trying to block those last blows took every bit of energy he had. That Luke was a monster, like his dad when he fought dooku.

Even still, he picked up Palps and chucked him like yesterdys trash with ONE hand.

 

[Fishmonger]

I guess you could look at it that way, but look at it this way, had Anakin not been discovered by Qui-Gon, and not been trained, met Padme, etc, then Luke/Leia would have never been born, and this series of events would have never taken place. Except for Palpatine deceiving everyone, and taking over the Galaxy of course. After all, it wasn't until a conflicted Anakin went to Windu did they even know what was going on.

If one employs that train of thought, it wouldn't stop. One would be able to continue to say "had this not happened, that wouldn't have happened" and so on, including Palpatine's actions.

For the question of who restores the force between Luke and Vader, there is at least a grounding for determining the particular question and its answer.

 

[Fat Abbot]

They were, but Vader didn't know this; he thought that Padme died, and so did the child (or children in this case). How is that Vader grew so much stronger in the Force in such a short period of time, with absolutely no training?

Also, if Vader was so strong in the Force, and he could sense anyone's location, why couldn't he sense Leia's location as well? I'll tell you why, because they hadn't formed a bond like he had with Luke, and in fact, the only person whom Vader could sense this accurately, was only Luke. This doesn't make him more force-sensitive than the Emperor. It was only until Vader searched Luke's feelings that he even became aware of who Leia was. Doesn't sound like he was so incredibly in tune with the Force after all, does it?

Palpatine was never able to sense Luke's location. After the original Death Star was destroyed, word spread across the Empire that a rebel pilot named Skywalker was responsible. Actually, even Vader knew his name was Skywalker. In the beginning of Empire, Vader is told that they found a trace of something on Hoth, to which Vader replies, "That's it, the rebels are there. That is the system, and I'm sure Skywalker is with them." This scene takes place before he spoke to the Emperor.

Only in the middle of the film does this conversation take place...

Darth Vader: What is thy bidding, my master?
Emperor: There is a great disturbance in the Force.
Darth Vader: I have felt it.
Emperor: We have a new enemy, the young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.
Darth Vader: How is that possible?
Emperor: Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us.
Darth Vader: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.
Emperor: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.
Darth Vader: If he could be turned, he will become a powerful ally.
Emperor: Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?
Darth Vader: He will join us or die, my master.

Is this a case of poor writing or what? So Vader knows that a rebel who is strong with the force destroyed the Death Star, a rebel named "Skywalker", but can't come to the conclusion that perhaps it may be his offspring? Anyway, that's an entirely different conversation. The point is that Palpatine just told Vader that he believed that this rebel named Skywalker was the son of Anakin Skywalker. So what exactly did he sense? Seems like he just put 2 and 2 together.

He said i have no doubt. if he were just putting 2 and 2 together i doubt hed say that.

Before their final battle, Luke searched Vader's feelings and said, "Search your feelings father, you can't do this, I feel the conflict within you, let go of your hate", to which Vader replies, "It is too late for me son."

Palpatine couldn't sense deception because Vader was still conflicted. He hadn't made an internal decision yet.

thats irrelevant. Having prophetic insight is about sensing what is, not what may have been if this or that didnt happen.

There is a reason why Luke put his lightsaber down and allowed himself to be tortured. It wasn't because he and his father planned to kill the Emperor in this fashion and rule the galaxy, it was because he sensed good in his father and he hoped that that good could be triggered by him being in pain.

Like I said, exactly the way Palpatine used his love for Padme and quest for ultimiate power to trigger his inner Dark Side.

When he loooked at his hand and his fathers he realized how alike they were if hed killed the emperor there he coulda turned into his father but worse.

If Vader had planned to overthrow the Emperor at that very moment, he likely wouldn't have been so conflicted during the scene don't you think? When Palpatine murdered Plagueis, Palpatine killed him in his sleep, because he planned to do so.

It didnt matter if it was planned or not. A true sith master would see it coming, unless he wasnt truly the master.

As i said it was pretty obvious, they were father and son, plus palps was always trying to replace the dude.

Palpatine didn't get "played", because it wasn't Vader's intention to take his place, it was intention to save his son. He knew that by grabbing Palpatine, he would be killed because of the Force lightening. Why? For the same reason that Vader didn't use Force lightening as a Sith. His suit was mechanical. And lightening and mechanical suits don't mix. It was a spur of the moment decision by Anakin to give his life to save his son. This had nothing to do with "outforcing" Palpatine.

See above a true sith master would see his apprentices betray coming. he didnt foresee it.

Whether Obi-Wan could have won the duel is irrelevant. His intention was to confront Vader, give Luke enough time to escape, and then sacrifice himself.

In the midst of his "dangerous" duel with Vader, he looks over at Luke...

Spoiler

He looks back at Vader and smiles...

Spoiler

Then he closes his eyes and prepares himself...

Spoiler

Are these the actions of a man that doesn't know what he's doing? You tell me.

He could have done all that and done more by defeating vader. He had no chance.

Anakin defeated Dooku when he had his organic body. As a mechanical Vader, he was outclassed numerous times in the expanded universe.

dont care about the eu dude, its not canon.

He didn't, though.

Yeah he did.

Healed himself? I don't know what you mean by this, and no he wasn't ever, at any point, more powerful than Palpatine.

He was immaculately concieved by the force itself....and youre saying he couldnt heal himself potentially? lol

What do you mean his vision seemed alright to you? Are you an optometrist? How could you possibly know what he saw? He wasn't blind, but one of the injuries that he sustained on Mustafar was damaging his retinas.

he wasnt squinting or anything, his eyes looked fine when he saw luke.

It seems to me that you're basing your entire opinion on the films alone, and not paying any mind to the other information I gave you from the expanded universe. I can't really do much about that. It's your opinion.

I'm basing them on canon.

 

[Fat Abbot]

That is how heirarchy is determined and the role of master is assumed, but that doesn't answer the question of who would beat who in a fight.

It's like saying: What if Jose Aldo was to hit Fedor with a tazer and steal his belt? Would that make him p4p the GOAT?

If they were sith yes.

Sith are trained to see into the future, use magic and be psychic.

If Fedor and Aldo were the 2 most powerful psychics in the galaxy but fedor was supposedly the stronger psychic, yet he gets blindsided by the supposedly weaker one. that tells you about their magic/psychic abilities/force usage whatever you wanna call it in respect to each other.

 

[Fishmonger]

My two cents on the matter:

Darth Vader was the man who destroyed the bulk of the Jedi order and then delivered the death blow to Palpatine.

This essentially "reset" the balance of power in the universe. That is to say, it "brought balance to the Force".

Luke Skywalker helped facillitate that, as well as all others who participated in the life of Anakin Skywalker. But ultimately, it was Anakin who was the man of destiny.

I understand and respect what you've written. I still think there is the question of who restored the force despite your answer. Anakin might have been the man of destiny for being the actor, who killed Palaptine, but Luke was the man of destiny as the converter such an action to occur. Vader was the man of executing the action of killing Palpatine and restoring balance; however, Luke was the man of conversion for Vader to perform the aforesaid act and its consequence(s). Are they both not man of destinies (that overlap even in the regard of balancing the force?)

 

[Fishmonger]

I would say that Luke represented one of the critical members of the Chosen One's destiny. By being his son, by being there at the moment when he could "change Vader's soul", and otherwise being so essential to the Will of the Force, Luke was an important figure in the play of providence.

I would put another figure on the same level as him: Palpatine. Like Luke, Palpatine altered the course of Vader's life, and acted at the crucial moments to change his destiny towards the Dark Side.

Was the whole thing, in a sense, predestined? Yes. In a sense, Anakin could not escape his fate. However, this fate had to be manifested in the world by certain actors, chief amongst them are Palpatine and Luke.

Think of Luke and Palpatine as the angel on one shoulder, the devil on the other. It's a cliched image, but it essentially tells the role each played.

Indeed. Even before I asked the original question I did to the Sherdog user, Palpatine, I leaned toward the view that you have described.



Who do you think is superior Vader or Luke?

 

[Fat Abbot]

To clarify matters of canon:

According to LUcasfilms, the canon is divided into several tiers.

The first tier is the MOVIES. They are the HIGHEST tier.

The second is the NOVELIZATION and SCREENPLAYS of the movies.

The third is the EU.

Fourth is GAMES unless otherwise indicated. They can (as in KOTOR and TOR) be bumped to EU level canon. Specifically, aspects of games are always non-canon.

Or more precisely, you can find an extensive writing about canon here:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon

FU is on par with the the movies themselves from what i understand. Words from Lucas himself are part of g canon which is absolute canon and lucas himself helped devolop the fu story.

 

[Fat Abbot]

Well then what are we talking about exactly? You're trying to disput my facts and backstory from the Expanded Universe (which is recognized by Lucasfilms), with your opinions based on personal preference from only the films. That's cool, but if we include the Expanded Universe, then you're off on just about every claim. If we go by just what we saw in the films, then sure, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

If we're talking about just the films, then I can just simply start by saying that the original Star Wars was supposed to be a stand alone film, and Darth Vader's real name was Darth Vader, Luke and Leia weren't supposed to be brother and sister, and Vader wasn't supposed to be Luke's father.

It's not absolute canon.

And your statement about ep 4 makes no sense, it would if the other movies didnt come out but they did and theyre as canon as ep 4.

 

[Fat Abbot]

I disagree entirely with this assessment as it shifts the debate to a different standard.

The standards of the judgement of strength is whether one would prevail against the other in a fight, at full force, et cetera.

The standards of the judgement of Sith heirarchy are no holds barred.

Did Darth Vader kill Palpatine? Yes. Does this make him stronger? No. Palpatine can be way stronger, but Vader can still kill him. Does it make him rightful Lord of the Sith? Yes, as getting the title is by whatever means you want.

A sith lords vision of the force and the future is his strongest asset.

That was what made sideous the ruler of the galaxy, he manipulated or controlled everyone he came into contact with, even the strongest jedi. Powers of manipulation and insight into future events are powerful tools. Even yoda knew how badly he failed because he couldnt see it coming when the dude was infront of him all along.

He even manipulated and controlled anakin for a long time, but in the end it backfired on him.

 

[Iroh]