Media Dana shuts down Francis ever returning

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I'm actually glad Dana confirmed this as it simply removes any ambiguity.
There's plenty of fighters who want IN to the UFC and happy with their deal ....so no need fo rUFC to spend an inordinatre amount of time and effort trying to get a new contract done for N'gone-now.

let's all just move on past the N'gone-now era.......
There's plenty of exciting heavyweights and I'm sure Dana and the Sean and Mick are always looking at adding more promising heavyweights.

Eh, I wish he was back….

 

[Deleted member 585708]

Best offer in terms of what? Money? Francis wants to box. The UFC wouldn't let him do that.

The UFC's contract offer for competing in MMA was probably sufficient.

But that they wouldn't let him chase a boxing fight simultaneously is probably what killed the deal.

I doubt the UFC's contract offer was for 1 or 2 fights.

If it was, he'd have probably fought.

They probably wanted 5 or 6 or more fights with no opportunity to box.

 

[Izzysexboyfriend]

“Id slap my wife before I ever resign Francis”

 

[tkotom]

So if you ever turn down their offer and choose to test free agency then you are banned forever. And they claim they are not/ trying to put a stranglehold on the sport by being a monopoly?

He insulted his employer in front of the world. Can you do that anywhere else except for in this sport and weirdos will come online and defend your behavior?

 

[Deleted member 585708]

He insulted his employer in front of the world. Can you do that anywhere else except for in this sport and weirdos will come online and defend your behavior?

He insulted Endeavor?

 

[LouisBolanos]

When it comes down to money, I'll believe that Dana and Co. will follow that anywhere it leads. Even if it means they'll hang a banner over the Octagon that reads.

"Welcome Back Francis!"

That's the thing though, Francis clearly got advice from the people behind the Ali Act for MMA and the class-action lawsuit, the things he's asking (outside of money) are pretty closely related to what Randy Couture/Jon Fitch/Cung Le are trying to push, and have far reaching implications for the very of nature of UFC business, things the UFC brass would absolutely fight to the bitter end against.

 

[Orochimaru 大蛇丸]

The contractor vs employee thing is obviously a big legal issue that will continue to be litigated by all the big companies that are classifying their people are contractors.

We’ll see where it lands in the coming years, I’m honestly not sure what to expect.

There is nothing legally (or in my opinion, ethically) wrong about saying “you are a contractor but you can’t provide similar services to anyone else.” The contractor has the right to say no, and if enough refused the employers would have to reconsider their offers. But there’s nothing fundamentally wrong with it.

And there are good arguments in both directions. For example, one of the things a court will look at is flexibility with respect to when and where you do the work. Other than what, maybe a dozen days a year, these guys can do whatever they want day to day. Some of them won’t do a single thing for the UFC for over a year (Font, Francis, Khamzat, etc.) Half of them have podcasts these days. Some of them coach or own gyms. Krause was doing whatever the hell Krause was doing. The UFC does not monopolize their time and space. They simply say, “I want to pay you to perform a couple times a year, and in exchange for me paying you for that I don’t want you to do the exact same thing for my competitors.”

My point about punching people in the face wasn’t to denigrate what they do. I’m just saying, “what is the intrinsic value to society of punching people in the face?” Without the infrastructure that the promoters provide, it’s an antisocial activity that gets you thrown in jail. The UFC (and other promoters) have turned it into a billion dollar enterprise, so people are willing to take the terms offered to them to participate. If there was no value added and it was just exploitation, nobody would do it. They’d go sell their skills to someone else. But they have a hard time doing it because without a top notch promotion involved what they do has minimal value. So what’s a “fair” price for their services? I have no idea, and that’s my point — “fair” is completely subjective.

Appreciate the thoughtful, well written response

You make some good points, one being the UFC doesn’t control what they’re doing day to day for the most part, although at least leading up to a fight they are essentially working for the UFC through training. Obviously it isn’t the same as having a job, but they have to let the UFC/USADA know where they’re at, at all times and they’re pro athletes who have to train. Someone with a 9-5 job and a bunch of benefits can also do podcasts and shit like that, being an MMA fighter for the UFC still requires the vast majority of your time and energy.

As far as the UFC making being an MMA fighter valuable, yeah that’s why they get to make the vast majority of the revenue, it’s just still too much. You could say the same about the NBA, the players still get 50% of the revenue, the dynamics of the sport just make it a looot harder to unionize. Saying “well they can say no, and if enough say no they could get a better deal” well yeah but the UFC does everything in their power to prevent that and as I said, the dynamics of the sport just make that a next to impossible thing to do.

I know this is kind of a separate issue, but do you believe fighters also make enough of the overall revenue?

It’s just tough to think of anything other than the WWE that is THAT advantageous for the corporation. And when you consider all the long term damage and everything that goes into it… tough for me to see how anyone could say it’s a fair deal for the fighters. Which is why pretty much everyone agrees it isn’t unless I’m just living in a bubble.

 

[jooohnmatrix]

After running from the stipe trilogy I say good riddance.

 

[nonoob]

They’ve tried to change their behaviour so they don’t lose the antitrust suit but Dana just can’t help himself. Francis had the audacity to turn down their offer and then when Dana wanted him to lose so he could cut him, Francis had the audacity to win. That type of shit Dana can’t tolerate.

He could only leave LOSING!

He left with the strap. That's a no-go zone.

He left as THE BEST.

So if you ever turn down their offer and choose to test free agency then you are banned forever.

“you are a contractor but you can’t provide similar services to anyone else.”

, he explained to Ariel he doesn’t think the entire UFC business model is fair being an indecent contractor, but not being able to fight anywhere else…

the class-action lawsuit, the things he's asking (outside of money) are pretty closely related to what Randy Couture/Jon Fitch/Cung Le are trying to push, and have far reaching implications

it’s the same shit the WWE does and it’s completely unfair compared to any other business. Everyone who works for them ARE independent contractors, but CANNOT work anywhere else, EMPLOYEE CONTROLLED negatives but NO POSITIVES. I

STILL IN ANTI-TRUST LAWSUITS !

 

[P4p Islam]

When the UFC gives you the best offer, by a wide margin, and you still don't accept, then you're just playing fucking games.

The UFC offered Ngannou what he was worth.

What do you think the undisputed ufc hw champ should make after defending his belt in dominant fashion?

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Appreciate the thoughtful, well written response

You make some good points, one being the UFC doesn’t control what they’re doing day to day for the most part, although at least leading up to a fight they are essentially working for the UFC through training. Obviously it isn’t the same as having a job, but they have to let the UFC/USADA know where they’re at, at all times and they’re pro athletes who have to train. Someone with a 9-5 job and a bunch of benefits can also do podcasts and shit like that, being an MMA fighter for the UFC still requires the vast majority of your time and energy.

As far as the UFC making being an MMA fighter valuable, yeah that’s why they get to make the vast majority of the revenue, it’s just still too much. You could say the same about the NBA, the players still get 50% of the revenue, the dynamics of the sport just make it a looot harder to unionize. Saying “well they can say no, and if enough say no they could get a better deal” well yeah but the UFC does everything in their power to prevent that and as I said, the dynamics of the sport just make that a next to impossible thing to do.

I know this is kind of a separate issue, but do you believe fighters also make enough of the overall revenue?

It’s just tough to think of anything other than the WWE that is THAT advantageous for the corporation. And when you consider all the long term damage and everything that goes into it… tough for me to see how anyone could say it’s a fair deal for the fighters. Which is why pretty much everyone agrees it isn’t unless I’m just living in a bubble.

Yup, you listed the points that work against the contractor argument (and with so much work from home post-pandemic I’m sure that factor will carry less weight moving forward).

I honestly don’t have a position on percentage of revenue. I have no idea what percentage of revenue dangerous jobs like coal miners get, for example. Military is a bad example because it’s not for profit (at least the military itself), but they risk getting blown in half and yet nobody thinks they should be making big money.

Ultimately I think it comes down to what they can bargain for. If there’s a headline tomorrow that the fighters cut a deal and are going to start getting more money, I’ll be happy for them. But I don’t think there’s a “right” or “wrong” percentage. We live in a world with 8 billion people on it. If what the UFC provides isn’t worth whatever percentage they’re getting, then fighters should be able to find someone else to provide the same stuff for less. But it turns out that it’s really hard to make it work in this business.

 

[Willek]

Incoming Jon Jones fuckup and Francis vs Stipe 3 in July.

 

[Xanzito]

Maybe when (If) Jones loses or retires. But as i see right now, they already have their big star at HW that they can prop up.

 

[spooNN]

Just like there will never me WMMA in the UFC.

 

[jsbx45]

If Frank can make them money, he'll be welcomed back.

 

[Uncommon Valor]

is that the original? I actually never knew where that meme started lol
I don’t watch to many movies

From the movie "Memento."


View attachment 978410

Good movie. You should watch it.

 

[joeson]

Dana is (obviously) a promoter with zero regard for the truth. Who cares what Dana says.

People think Francis (at his age especially) should have taken what is widely believed to be a very good offer and quite possibly a better offer than he could get elsewhere. The existence of a best offer isn’t evidence of an anticompetitive market. There will always be a best offer out there for all of us, that doesn’t mean that the maker of that best offer has a monopoly.

Also, monopolies are about the customers, not employees, contractors, service providers, vendors, etc. Lots of people put on MMA shows. The UFC is the most popular, but it’s not like they slashed prices to drive the opposition out of business or colluded to fix prices.

The claim is that the UFC is a monopsony, not a monopoly. A monopsony is when there is a single purchaser. That makes it about the fighters, not the fans. The UFC is the sole purchaser of their services, at least the sole purchaser of any consequence.

If the competition can’t put forward even a competitive offer, the UFC isn’t just the best option it’s the only one. Is everyone saying Francis made a mistake because the offers are really close and the UFC is just the best option or because the UFC is the best option by a landslide?

The UFC aggressively discouraging free agency for their best fighters and Dana trying to ruin their careers is anticompetitive and absolutely relevant. How is there supposed to competition if the other orgs can’t get a pipeline to decent talent? The UFC’s restrictive contracts prevents any movement, even years after retirement. The sunset clause that allowed Ngannou to walk was only put in place a few years ago as a result of the antitrust suit. Before that the champion clause meant contracts renewed in perpetuity, which is very likely illegal. It’s the reason GSP couldn’t box DeLaHoya years after retirement.

 

[kenetics]

Dana is petty af and took it personal

Did this with Fedor too when he threw all kind of money towards him . Got turned down and was petty as hell lol.

 

[TheTickG]

no matter what the goof doesn’t want him back even if he begged on his knees

If he's still talking about him that means he can still return. Happened with fighters in the past.

 

[Neck&Neck]

Dana Blight
Just thought of that one, lol