Cung Le's flying scissor takedown

[Kforcer]

According to bjjheroes, Camarillo became head AKA grappling coach in 2003, well before Cung made his MMA debut in 2006.

https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/dave-camarillo

It's possible Shields or Shamrock were gaslighting Le while training there. I'm sure those guys and others were clowning him in the grappling department and he probably was less than confident there. But I suspect Le's MMA style was more heavily influenced by the following:

1) He was old. Le debuted in Strikeforce at 34 and the UFC at 39. We've seen other wrestlers change up their styles and shy away from TDs in mid-30's due to injuries and slowing down with age. Guys like Sherk and Hendo come to mind. High amplitude freestyle/Judo style throws like Le was doing are brutal on your knees and back over time.

2) The Andy Wang effect. TUF brought in more casuals but increased the need to "be exciting." A guy like Le probably realized he'd never be Charles Oliveira on the ground and figured he'd be more popular and make more money if he fought like Anderson Silva rather than Jon Fitch.

I guess I think at the very least they might have planted some seeds in his head regarding his ground-game.

You make good points though. Earlier you talked about whether or not his takedown game would have been as effective in MMA and that's an interesting question. I wonder if he would have a special level of timing and transitional ability with his strikes and takedowns that others than may have been better pure wrestlers lacked though. I guess we will never know the answer at this point. It's just one of those things I always wanted to find out. Like you say, and like @EndlessCritic noted, he wasn't a spring chicken when he entered MMA and you can't ignore that.

Like many, though, I just had been speculating for years and years what would happen if Cung Le took his striking and takedown wizardry into the MMA world and I can't help but be disappointed that we didn't see him trying to implement the full array of other-worldly striking combined with the flying scissors, suplexes and throws.

I also have to wonder if his desire to do movies didn't add to his distractions from the MMA game. Wasn't he doing a movie, for example, before his Rich Franklin fight? I seem to recall him dividing his time in a way that went way beyond what fighters would normally do.

 

[sb413197]

GROTESQUELY under-utilized takedown in MMA, IMHO. Lands you straight into a leg entanglement and is unknown because illegal in Judo and I don't think used in wrestling either. BJJ players are always looking for a way to get it to the ground against fighters with good standard takedown defense, and this is a great way to do it.

 

[Kforcer]

GROTESQUELY under-utilized takedown in MMA, IMHO. Lands you straight into a leg entanglement and is unknown because illegal in Judo and I don't think used in wrestling either. BJJ players are always looking for a way to get it to the ground against fighters with good standard takedown defense, and this is a great way to do it.

It is a great takedown. And way underutilized as you said. Part of the issue is that if done in a certain way it can be incredibly dangerous to train, especially with guys not used to taking it. In American scholastic wrestling, there is a similar move, called the broomstick, that replaces the back leg of the scissor with the arm (to actually scissor with both legs is called a "cutback" and illegal). In freestyle, either it is fully legal or Barry Davis and Fadzaev were just breaking the rules when they used it. Not sure which cause sometimes big deal wrestlers get away with stuff.

Fadzaev's scissor that I saw was in a Russian trials match that I would be hard pressed to find, but here is Barry Davis's gold medal match where he went for a scissor at 8:52:

 

[ChickenBrother]

I guess I think at the very least they might have planted some seeds in his head regarding his ground-game.

You make good points though. Earlier you talked about whether or not his takedown game would have been as effective in MMA and that's an interesting question. I wonder if he would have a special level of timing and transitional ability with his strikes and takedowns that others than may have been better pure wrestlers lacked though. I guess we will never know the answer at this point. It's just one of those things I always wanted to find out. Like you say, and like @EndlessCritic noted, he wasn't a spring chicken when he entered MMA and you can't ignore that.

Like many, though, I just had been speculating for years and years what would happen if Cung Le took his striking and takedown wizardry into the MMA world and I can't help but be disappointed that we didn't see him trying to implement the full array of other-worldly striking combined with the flying scissors, suplexes and throws.

I also have to wonder if his desire to do movies didn't add to his distractions from the MMA game. Wasn't he doing a movie, for example, before his Rich Franklin fight? I seem to recall him dividing his time in a way that went way beyond what fighters would normally do.

All great points and Cung Le is near the top of my list of "What if?" guys who coulda shoulda woulda been contending for a UFC or Pride strap in the late 90's/early 00's. Would have been intriguing to see if he'd still go for his Sanshou style TDs in his physical prime - although we know that suplexes, etc. in MMA are rare precisely because there are much safer ways to land with control when ground game is a factor. But as it was, even if he'd wanted to, I suspect his scissor TD would have been a tall order vs. younger, faster opponents given the loss of explosion for most athletes after mid-30's. That he had as much success as he did at 40 as almost a pure striker vs. top flight opponents just blows my mind.

Acting surely was a distraction for him but seems he only dabbled in it until his Strikeforce and UFC fights brought him enough notoriety for a smattering of B-movie and TV roles.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

In freestyle, either it is fully legal or Barry Davis and Fadzaev were just breaking the rules when they used it. Not sure which cause sometimes big deal wrestlers
Fadzaev's scissor that I saw was in a Russian trials match that I would be hard pressed to find, but here is Barry Davis's gold medal match where he went for a scissor at 8:52:

It's legal, but not super common. Any move where you throw your own back towards the mat is going to be a bit high risk when there are points given for instantaneous exposure.

 

[Kforcer]

It's legal, but not super common. Any move where you throw your own back towards the mat is going to be a bit high risk when there are points given for instantaneous exposure.

Interestingly, I guess the broomstick, which arguably exists largely because of the prohibition on the outright scissors, is more effective because of the greater control it grants.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Interestingly, I guess the broomstick, which arguably exists largely because of the prohibition on the outright scissors, is more effective because of the greater control it grants.

I made a thread a year ago about the ineffectiveness of the broomstick...

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...dy-in-mat-returns-from-this-past-ufc.3961787/

 

[Kforcer]

I made a thread a year ago about the ineffectiveness of the broomstick...

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...dy-in-mat-returns-from-this-past-ufc.3961787/

We probably mean something different by broomstick, I'm guessing.

 

[Kforcer]

I made a thread a year ago about the ineffectiveness of the broomstick...

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...dy-in-mat-returns-from-this-past-ufc.3961787/

This is what a lot of people call the broomstick in wrestling:

 

[EndlessCritic]

This is what a lot of people call the broomstick in wrestling:

Interesting. I always it was this:

 

[Kforcer]

Interesting. I always it was this:

Yeah, it's weird how two very different things are called by the same name. Given my interest in standing leglock entries and having come from a wrestling background, the version of the move I posted was always of great interest to me. And I actually enjoy it a lot; I think of it as sort of a middle-ground between a flying scissor and a Viktor's roll-type entry.

And just the idea of a move that can serve as a leglock entry in one setting and as a takedown into a pin in another is very interesting, I think. I always felt like if you could do both, i.e., use the broomstick for control and a pin in a wrestling environment and also use the broomstick or it's kinfolk in a submission environment, you could have something pretty special. If you can roll for a leg and on landing, establish the sort of control sufficient to score a takedown and even a pin in scholastic wrestling, then the entry is that much stronger, because even if you can't get the leglock, you're still in a strong place.

Wrestling terminology is a funny thing; this isn't the only instance I can think of where two different moves have the same name.

 

[RJ Green]

Judo players were hitting the broomstick off of inside trips a lot right before the leg ban grab!

Also, since it hasn't been posted yet:

 

[rmongler]

This is what a lot of people call the broomstick in wrestling:

It's funny what you said earlier since this is what i've always called a cutback.

 

[Kforcer]

It's funny what you said earlier since this is what i've always called a cutback.

Funny; when I was in high school, this was illustrated as alternative to the cutback, which was a scissors. But of course, in a way it isn't that funny. It makes sense that the moves could be conflated or mixed up sense they are basically just two versions of the same technique.

 

[dsdoubled]

Prime Sanshou Cung Le was a straight pimp. Even before his Sanshou run he was a CA state JUCO wrestling champ and national All American. Would have loved to have seen him in MMA in late 90's, early 00's vs. prime Miletich, Newton or Hughes for the UFC strap.

Cung most definitely had the talent to go onto DI wrestling and do well, he must've had other interests though. The California juco scene from his day was pretty well stacked with great wrestlers (and quite a few top fighters) . Cung and Tito didn't just win the Cali Juco title, they were OW at least once. Cung, Tito, Heath Sims, Antonio McKee, Rumble Johnson, Jamil Kelly, Rampage, Jake Shields, and many others cut their teeth on that circuit.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Cung most definitely had the talent to go onto DI wrestling and do well, he must've had other interests though. The California juco scene from his day was pretty well stacked with great wrestlers (and quite a few top fighters) . Cung and Tito didn't just win the Cali Juco title, they were OW at least once. Cung, Tito, Heath Sims, Antonio McKee, Rumble Johnson, Jamil Kelly, Rampage, Jake Shields, and many others cut their teeth on that circuit.

Oh yeah, I wrestled in HS in CA before moving out of state for college and I think it gave me a warped sense of what regular HS and JUCO looks like in most states. I mean, I don't think CA was/is as tough as say PA but it's a huge state and the better guys are really really good. I remember going to the bigger tourneys as a 16 or 17 year old (when I made Varsity) and there would be like 5 guys IN EVERY WEIGHT CLASS that looked like Shute from Vision Quest and they'd all been wrestling since age 5. I wrestled 140 my senior year and I distinctly remember stepping on the mat with my Kenny Florian physique at the time and seeing some guy that looked like f'ing Sean Sherk standing across from me.

 

[Kforcer]

Oh yeah, I wrestled in HS in CA before moving out of state for college and I think it gave me a warped sense of what regular HS and JUCO looks like in most states. I mean, I don't think CA was/is as tough as say PA but it's a huge state and the better guys are really really good. I remember going to the bigger tourneys as a 16 or 17 year old (when I made Varsity) and there would be like 5 guys IN EVERY WEIGHT CLASS that looked like Shute from Vision Quest and they'd all been wrestling since age 5. I wrestled 140 my senior year and I distinctly remember stepping on the mat with my Kenny Florian physique at the time and seeing some guy that looked like f'ing Sean Sherk standing across from me.

Well, isn't California one of the toughest states because it is huge and they only have a single state champion in each weight class?

 

[ChickenBrother]

Well, isn't California one of the toughest states because it is huge and they only have a single state champion in each weight class?

I've been away from that scene for a very long time but a recent college wrestler who trains at my BJJ school told me in his opinion, CA is the second toughest state in the nation after PA. I don't have a current opinion on that but anecdotally I agree with what our coach used to tell us: the average wrestler in Iowa or PA is better than the average wrestler in CA, but the best in CA are among the best in the nation.

Because it's such a huge state, you have to win or place at four progressively higher tourneys to win CA state: League, Division, Masters and finally CA State. Senior year, I placed second in league (I had an easy bracket) and thus advanced to CIF division where I got consecutively destroyed by two guys who looked like Shute. I think I may have won one match before that but if so it was close. Finishers at each level advance to the next level tourney so to even get to one of the 4 Masters tournaments let alone place there and qualify for the state tourney, you're in rarified air. And to place in state, you're talking guys like the Aaron Picos and Henry Cejudos of the world.

 

[dsdoubled]

Oh yeah, I wrestled in HS in CA before moving out of state for college and I think it gave me a warped sense of what regular HS and JUCO looks like in most states. I mean, I don't think CA was/is as tough as say PA but it's a huge state and the better guys are really really good. I remember going to the bigger tourneys as a 16 or 17 year old (when I made Varsity) and there would be like 5 guys IN EVERY WEIGHT CLASS that looked like Shute from Vision Quest and they'd all been wrestling since age 5. I wrestled 140 my senior year and I distinctly remember stepping on the mat with my Kenny Florian physique at the time and seeing some guy that looked like f'ing Sean Sherk standing across from me.

I'm pretty sure there have been more NCAA DI champs than Cali HS state champs in the UFC. I'm not quite sure what that says but I guess it speaks to the level of athlete it takes to win that title.

 

[dsdoubled]

I've been away from that scene for a very long time but a recent college wrestler who trains at my BJJ school told me in his opinion, CA is the second toughest state in the nation after PA. I don't have a current opinion on that but anecdotally I agree with what our coach used to tell us: the average wrestler in Iowa or PA is better than the average wrestler in CA, but the best in CA are among the best in the nation.

Because it's such a huge state, you have to win or place at four progressively higher tourneys to win CA state: League, Division, Masters and finally CA State. Senior year, I placed second in league (I had an easy bracket) and thus advanced to CIF division where I got consecutively destroyed by two guys who looked like Shute. I think I may have won one match before that but if so it was close. Finishers at each level advance to the next level tourney so to even get to one of the 4 Masters tournaments let alone place there and qualify for the state tourney, you're in rarified air. And to place in state, you're talking guys like the Aaron Picos and Henry Cejudos of the world.

So that's what the Masters tournament is? I wondered that. Pico, Zahid, and a few others proved the level that Cali's best wrestlers are at when they win State and then win cadet world medals. And going back to my last comment, the only Cali state champs-turned UFC fighters I can name off the top of my head are Mark Schultz, Mark Munoz, maybe Antonio McKee, and that's it. Not Hendo, not Tito, not Jake Shields, none of the other big names. Bobby Green placed high a couple times as well. As did Faber and Chad Mendes. Maybe TJ too.