Cung Le's flying scissor takedown

[dsdoubled]

I've been away from that scene for a very long time but a recent college wrestler who trains at my BJJ school told me in his opinion, CA is the second toughest state in the nation after PA. I don't have a current opinion on that but anecdotally I agree with what our coach used to tell us: the average wrestler in Iowa or PA is better than the average wrestler in CA, but the best in CA are among the best in the nation.

Because it's such a huge state, you have to win or place at four progressively higher tourneys to win CA state: League, Division, Masters and finally CA State. Senior year, I placed second in league (I had an easy bracket) and thus advanced to CIF division where I got consecutively destroyed by two guys who looked like Shute. I think I may have won one match before that but if so it was close. Finishers at each level advance to the next level tourney so to even get to one of the 4 Masters tournaments let alone place there and qualify for the state tourney, you're in rarified air. And to place in state, you're talking guys like the Aaron Picos and Henry Cejudos of the world.

There was an Armenian guy that racked up a bunch of California wrestling hardware but I'm not sure how far he went. I'm at a loss with his name though.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I'm pretty sure there have been more NCAA DI champs than Cali HS state champs in the UFC. I'm not quite sure what that says but I guess it speaks to the level of athlete it takes to win that title.

According to this link from 2016, the only UFC names I recognize who were CA state champs are Joe Soto, Marvin Eastman and Mark Munoz. Aaron Pico (Bellator) was also CA state champ. Guys like Hendo, Shields, Chad Mendes, TJ Dillashaw, Gilbert Melendez and Tito Ortiz qualified for or placed at the state tournament but weren't champs.

http://www.calgrappler.com/calgrappler-mma/

I just know there are some straight killers swimming near the top in CA. I remember one of my teammates (a legit varsity level wrestler in his own right) getting clowned by a bully in our league who was built like a 30 yo bodybuilder. The guy was a bit of a douche, wrestled freestyle in the off season and his thing was humiliating guys in dual meets. In their (folkstyle) match, he took my buddy's back and picked him up into what would have been a freestyle 5 point throw but then just threw him backwards like Zangief so my buddy fell straight on his ass from 5 feet in the air. Then the bully looked at the ref and threw his hands up like it was an accident, happily took his illegal slam penalty and proceeded to take the match seriously and pinned my buddy. I understand that guy got tech falled at the section tourney (didn't even qualify for level below the state tourney).

I think if you've done what it takes to win CA state as a wrestler, it's likely you're a lifelong wrestling specialist and if you transition to MMA, it's debatable if you'll ever really become well-rounded.

 

[ChickenBrother]

So that's what the Masters tournament is? I wondered that. Pico, Zahid, and a few others proved the level that Cali's best wrestlers are at when they win State and then win cadet world medals. And going back to my last comment, the only Cali state champs-turned UFC fighters I can name off the top of my head are Mark Schultz, Mark Munoz, maybe Antonio McKee, and that's it. Not Hendo, not Tito, not Jake Shields, none of the other big names. Bobby Green placed high a couple times as well. As did Faber and Chad Mendes. Maybe TJ too.

Yep, see my post above - Mark Munoz, Marvin Eastman and Joe Soto. Didn't realize Mark Schultz did as well.

I believe there are still 4 Masters tournaments with placers qualifying for the state tournament. If you even made it to the masters tourney, that was MAJOR bragging rights in HS. And if you qualify for the state tourney (meaning you placed at masters), you're almost certainly in the company of guys who are gunning for college scholarships and/or elite competition.

Taking myself as an example, I placed in league and qualified for the CIF division tourney (level below masters) but didn't place there. Always considered myself a complete scrub but competing later in club wrestling during off-season from Judo, I was on par with or sometimes better than state finishers from some of the smaller states.

 

[Kforcer]

Yep, see my post above - Mark Munoz, Marvin Eastman and Joe Pico. Didn't realize Mark Schultz did as well.

I believe there are still 4 Masters tournaments with placers qualifying for the state tournament. If you even made it to the masters tourney, that was MAJOR bragging rights in HS. And if you even qualify for the state tourney (meaning you placed at masters), you're almost certainly in the company of guys who are gunning for college scholarships and/or elite competition.

Taking myself as an example, I placed in league and qualified for the CIF division tourney (level below masters) but didn't place there. Always considered myself a complete scrub but competing later in club wrestling during off-season from Judo, I was on par with or sometimes better than state finishers from some of the smaller states.

That's interesting. My cousin, Nolan, was 6th in states in California. I never met the guy but I have a feeling he picked up wrestling because of me and my older brother. I've always meant to write him or something and congratulate him on his accomplishment. I'm a Michigan guy, but I did know enough to understand that it was quite an accomplishment getting to states in California. Splitting things up by division like so many states do does change things. Although senior nationals does serve to clear things up to some extent.

And I have to say, even if we have different state champs from A-D, Michigan is still pretty bad-ass when it comes to wrestling. My Michigan pride won't let me leave off without saying so.

 

[ChickenBrother]

That's interesting. My cousin, Nolan, was 6th in states in California. I never met the guy but I have a feeling he picked up wrestling because of me and my older brother. I've always meant to write him or something and congratulate him on his accomplishment. I'm a Michigan guy, but I did know enough to understand that it was quite an accomplishment getting to states in California. Splitting things up by division like so many states do does change things. Although senior nationals does serve to clear things up to some extent.

And I have to say, even if we have different state champs from A-D, Michigan is still pretty bad-ass when it comes to wrestling. My Michigan pride won't let me leave off without saying so.

That's super impressive - did your cousin wrestle in college?

I know there's no absolute pecking order when it comes to states, so I wasn't trying to talk up my (former) state. And of course every athlete has their own story and background, particularly in HS. My youngest cousin made it to the state tourney in CA but didn't place. I wasn't that close to him and he lived a few hours away. He had always been a bit of a freak athlete, walking around on his hands up and down stairs and shit as a little kid, and I think he went to state at 103 lbs or whatever the lightest weight was. After HS he went college pre-med then medical school and I don't even think he did any competitive sports since then other than rec league soccer or something.

 

[Kforcer]

That's super impressive - did your cousin wrestle in college?

I know there's no absolute pecking order when it comes to states, so I wasn't trying to talk up my (former) state. And of course every athlete has their own story and background, particularly in HS. My cousin made it to the state tourney in CA but didn't place. He was a bit of a freak athlete, walking around on his hands up and down stairs and shit as a little kid, and I think he did it at 103 lbs or whatever the lightest weight was. After HS he went college pre-med then medical school and I don't even think he did any competitive sports since then other than rec league soccer or something.

Yeah, I guess he's like a freshman or sophomore at Washington State University. It looks like their wrestling is in a strange position, like a club team, that is striving to become a full program again. Most of his family is pretty brainy, so I'd assume he is as well.

BTW, I know you weren't talking up California, you were just talking facts. It's the truth.

The A-D thing is really not a good thing in Michigan, but thankfully the schools still do compete against each other to some extent in tournaments and pre-season meets. It would probably make all the schools better off if it was just done away with. In Michigan, school dominance seems to swing like a pendulum and it is probably partially because of the A-D system. Back in the 80's, the urban schools were churning out guys like Kevin Jackson and the rural schools were comparatively mediocre, now the reverse is true. If they were all in the same division, they'd probably force one another to sustain a consistent level of quality, just by forcing everyone to wrestle the best, wherever that might be, instead of having schools that are basically neighbors to one another, that never compete against each other. So I think California's system would be something great for Michigan.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Yeah, I guess he's like a freshman or sophomore at Washington State University. It looks like their wrestling is in a strange position, like a club team, that is striving to become a full program again. Most of his family is pretty brainy, so I'd assume he is as well.

BTW, I know you weren't talking up California, you were just talking facts. It's the truth.

The A-D thing is really not a good thing in Michigan, but thankfully the schools still do compete against each other to some extent in tournaments and pre-season meets. It would probably make all the schools better off if it was just done away with. In Michigan, school dominance seems to swing like a pendulum and it is probably partially because of the A-D system. Back in the 80's, the urban schools were churning out guys like Kevin Jackson and the rural schools were comparatively mediocre, now the reverse is true. If they were all in the same division, they'd probably force one another to sustain a consistent level of quality, just by forcing everyone to wrestle the best, wherever that might be, instead of having schools that are basically neighbors to one another, that never compete against each other. So I think California's system would be something great for Michigan.

Wait, so this A-D system in Michigan means there's no clear statewide championship? How does that work?

One of my former work colleagues wrestled HS in Michigan and started in 10th grade with no prior grappling background. Then after only 3 years wrestling and a J. Robinson camp, made his D-1 team at Harvard where he said he was a .50 wrestler over 4 years. He's still the only guy I know who made D-1 with only 3 years prior wrestling. I know it happens but thought that was damn impressive.

 

[Kforcer]

Wait, so this A-D system in Michigan means there's no clear statewide championship? How does that work?

One of my former work colleagues wrestled HS in Michigan and started in 10th grade with no prior grappling background. Then after only 3 years wrestling and a J. Robinson camp, made his D-1 team at Harvard where he said he was a .50 wrestler over 4 years. He's still the only guy I know who made D-1 with only 3 years prior wrestling. I know it happens but thought that was damn impressive.

So, in Michigan, and I guess in a lot of other states, each division has their own state champion. So you have 4 different state champions per weight class. I think California is about the only state where they don't do that. At least, that was my understanding.

That's pretty bad-ass by your former coworker. Not to mention, pretty impressive getting into the Ivy League. That might also be a credit to J. Robinson; I remember that was a month-long camp and it had a reputation as being one that really did fundamentally change whoever had the guts to step through its doors.

 

[ChickenBrother]

So, in Michigan, and I guess in a lot of other states, each division has their own state champion. So you have 4 different state champions per weight class. I think California is about the only state where they don't do that. At least, that was my understanding.

That's pretty bad-ass by your former coworker. Not to mention, pretty impressive getting into the Ivy League. That might also be a credit to J. Robinson; I remember that was a month-long camp and it had a reputation as being one that really did fundamentally change whoever had the guts to step through its doors.

Wow, didn't know that. But makes sense and that puts into perspective some of the guys I've ran into over the years who told me they "placed in [smaller state] in HS."

Yeah my buddy really talked up the J. Robinson camp and credited it with turning him into a monster for his senior year. He said it was very grueling. But I first met him when we were both mid-30s office workers and I didn't even know he had wrestled in college until he mentioned it at a company event. LOL the next day we went down to the basement gym to play with TD's on the wood floor yoga room. But he hadn't trained in 10 years, was short on sleep due to a newborn and had a 10-year dad bod in the making.

He's not the only former D-1 guy I've met who let themselves go after college. I know habitual weight cutting can mess up your metabolism, but I think a lot of guys just burn out after competing at that level. When I think about the mat time I get now in one week as a mid-40s hobbyist, it's less than I got in just one day of HS wrestling practice (let alone what the college wrestlers go through), and much less intense.

 

[Chuckliddell24]

I had always seen the flying scissor as a bit of a joke takedown, but it's incredible how proficient Cung Le was at it in his day. Watch this clip from 45s onwards. His setup seems to be quite unusual in that he leads with the leg that goes behind his opponent, almost as if he's faking a side kick.



By contrast, with the standard flying scissor, people generally lead with the leg that goes in front of their opponent, then bring the back leg behind:

I confess I have never seen anyone else ever attack the flying scissor the way Cung Le does. Is there a special name for his variation?

Beautiful.






Both of them.

 

[yokerclown]

yep this atkedown looks nasty but i like to keep rule: never touch the mat before your oponent does

 

[Human Bass]

Gordon Ryan used against the high level wrestler Bo Nickal and it worked quite well.

 

[Kforcer]

yep this atkedown looks nasty but i like to keep rule: never touch the mat before your oponent does

That doesn't necessarily apply to moves like this--posting your hand on the mat while you're still mid-air can give you more control and also make things a bit safer for your opponent. Also, if you're goal is to use it to segue into a leglock, then hitting the mat before your opponent can give you a big head start going to work.