Cuban Boxing Fundamentals

[SandisLL]

Shot put I think is helpful for many boxing and not only boxing punches so I agree with Sinister about it.

Weight lifting, I there don't mean pure boxing, might help a lot, I think.
Cos, in ideal ( rare in life cos guys aren't static dolls ) sceanario proper uppercut is delivered mainly with legs and all other body, hand is only tool like hammer in hand.
Weight lifting is done primary with…. the legs. Beginning is in foot, ankles, knees, hips and spine, not hand. If one is with midlle or low stance, rapid, explosive extension in foots, ankles, knees, hips joints and spine delivers " height reach " from your not full height to full height and hand then even with short distance to travel itself, might deliver chin movement to longer distance than there just is place for hand's movement distance.
Cos lifting mechanics, there are comfort with high work load and due to movements under resistance experience there might be easy also to deliver elbow something like from 6 to 12 clock for striking in arts,where this is allowed.

 

[listrahtes]

can this thread made "sticky" at the start of the forum. Imo its so much gold in it that the thread has earned that. Would be great.

 

[Sinister]

Possibly

 

[thugpoet]

Well if ever you feel like giving it a go, I would very much like to know the differences between Montréal boxing and American boxing, since I come from Montréal.

Boxing is traditionally pretty huge in MTL and I assume that it is mostly standard American style.

Oh and BTW this thread is one of the best threads I have ever read here and this forum is lucky to have you Sinister.

Think of it as a different dialects of the same language. There is a dominant style of boxing here in the states however some of us have different unique systems. Sinister cross comes to mind

 

[StopDucking]

I don't think the rising generates force. Force tends to be relative to connection to the ground. I don't think he does it for power, but rather sacrifices power for both mobility and what he perceives as a sense of balance. Meaning, if you get hit and moved, you have some position to move to. When you're more rooted, you hit harder, but if you get knocked off-base it's more difficult to recover. At least, that's what I think they think. And yes, reliance on athletic attributes. To an extent.

Aight so I've been studying Frolov's system a lot. Even hooked up with a Russian chick so I can have non-subbed videos translated to me lol.

You're right in saying that "force tends to be relative to connection to the ground" Here's the thing: when we sit on our punches, what we're doing is push towards the ground to create an opposite reaction force and convert it into punching power. That's why our punches tend to go straight or up since the power comes from the ground.

The Russians do it differently; they generate power themselves by rising up, transfer that power to their shoulders and arms and punch DOWN as their bodies go down almost in a semi-circular motion. That's why they need to either bounce around or stomp their feet hard as they punch. Gliding or dragging your feet isn't gonna cut it.

It's also true that some power is sacrificed in the process and that you need to be reasonably athletic to really make it work. What I've found out though is that punching the way they do almost guarantees you're gonna connect with your first two knuckes. If we add your fist formation technique to the mix, it's even 100% guaranteed.

If modern bare-knuckle boxing goes anywhere (it probably won't), I truly believe the Russian style is the way to go (less risk of breaking your hands and better jaw protection with the shoulders rising very high with every punch).

@kenji goh Always gonna tag you as well, buddy.

 

[SandisLL]

If modern bare-knuckle boxing goes anywhere (it probably won't), I truly believe the Russian style is the way to go

Might be usable, however I don't think that they will use just pure Sovietic - Cuban sport tutelage. Yes, sport boxing is effective also barehands but soviets, when created Combat Sambo as sport discipline, in mind, that for service purposes this most likely will be done with barehands or service gloves ( no padding no hand wraps ) included something also from kylacny boi, bare knuckle stuff.

I think for bare-knuckle boxing good solution is TMA style conditioning plus modern boxing conditioning and mix from modern boxing and bare knuckle boxing.

punch DOWN in some chases might help decrease evasion effect by "pressing" punch into guy who changes his body angle while punch comes in.

 

[Dexter]

Greetings, colleagues!

Comrade Dexter here . I am from the Russian Federation (in boxing since 2000, all of my trainers are soviet old-school) and with great interest’ve read this topic, ‘cause at our mma-forums we also often discuss boxing in the US, UK, Mexico. Stealing some drills, discarding what is useless in our opinion…
So I would like to start correcting some misunderstanding regarding the Soviet boxing school. It does not exist as a whole, since each republic that was part of the USSR had its own regional / national features.
You can see this on the example of Gennady Golovkin
(development of soviet-Kazakh school)
Vasyl Lomachenko (development of soviet-Ukrainian school)
Dmitry Bivol (development of soviet-Russian school)
Muhammad Abdulaev (soviet-Uzbek)

Of course, it is possible to deduce features characteristic only of the old-school USSR boxing. They are:



- A common, concrete basis for all boxers, regardless of weight, height, left-right-handedness? if he is a genius or dumb af. Everyone knew how to do all kinds of punches, duck, slip, dodge… All movements were repeated multiple times and brought to automatism. The main emphasis on the correct implementation of technical actions. No moving forward without perfecting the studied action. Universal base and LOTS of boxing training everywhere - in an army, schools, factory or colledge, for children, soldiers, marines, workers...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrz5fVy9hLE

- Pair drills in gloves. For example, for the first round, number 1 is doing only jab, number 2 - any defense he like, but if it's slip to the left, he then continues with left hook to the body, left hook to the head, right cross. Next round - vice versa. No mitts, all to the head-body full speed, the defender uses blocks, etc.

- Basic movement «Челнок»
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fl8dJZqv3A

- Unification and codification of defensive / attacking actions for each type of opponent: southpaw, swarmer, slugger, out-boxer… All actions are described in numerous textbooks, manuals, training films. So every boxer knew how to box with any opponent.

Vs lefty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmaTl43XbrY&list=PLDWzJTQ7JZJPz-zYeosVSlVOr7jRX9vyR&index=2

Vs cuban boxers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHkEI9vZ5TM&list=PLT7j8cCAd8eppkiL_RI8RkiBnp1q_U31F&index=7

Working on the inside
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmkQicZ63zE&list=PLDWzJTQ7JZJPz-zYeosVSlVOr7jRX9vyR&index=4

- A system of general physical and special physical training in the form of circular training ("круговая тренировка").
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONqiELRuahk

The list goes on… ^-)

Main weaknesses of the old soviet school:

- No cutting the angles due to the style of movement;
- Underdeveloped inside boxing (was invented only in 1969, with the release of the book
«Ближний бой в боксе» by Ogurenkov E.I.
https://studfiles.net/preview/1715289/
- Emphasis on out-boxing not K.O.ing opponent, i.e. amateur point-style.

Ex.
Soviet boxing-specific exercises:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS9UMk04_mM&t=165s push-push
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4pg9uZEle4&t=108s top 3 coordination drills
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IQQCxtVJWs&t=39s sparring drill

Therefore, in the case of the coach Frolov, whom you are discussing, the options he offers are precisely HIS vision of boxing training, and not at all the ultimate truth of soviet school (ultimate truth does not exist ).
Just like not all of your trainers teach Cus d’Amato style or «philly shell», same applies to our boxing gyms. For example, your Kenny Weldon with his «evaluation line» and other technical drills is very close to what we were given in our training sessions.

P.S. Feel free to ask questions.

P.P.S. Sorry for my English.

 

[SandisLL]

That's maybe specific for this style, but not for all soviet box cos soviets used not only cuban type style.

That I wrote, that not even only Cuban type they used.
Interpretation of style, also of course...

P.P.S. Sorry for my English.

I see your english is better than mine, LOL.

 

[Sinister]

Greetings, colleagues!

Comrade Dexter here . I am from the Russian Federation (in boxing since 2000, all of my trainers are soviet old-school) and with great interest’ve read this topic, ‘cause at our mma-forums we also often discuss boxing in the US, UK, Mexico. Stealing some drills, discarding what is useless in our opinion…
So I would like to start correcting some misunderstanding regarding the Soviet boxing school. It does not exist as a whole, since each republic that was part of the USSR had its own regional / national features.
You can see this on the example of Gennady Golovkin
(development of soviet-Kazakh school)
Vasyl Lomachenko (development of soviet-Ukrainian school)
Dmitry Bivol (development of soviet-Russian school)
Muhammad Abdulaev (soviet-Uzbek)

Of course, it is possible to deduce features characteristic only of the old-school USSR boxing. They are:



- A common, concrete basis for all boxers, regardless of weight, height, left-right-handedness? if he is a genius or dumb af. Everyone knew how to do all kinds of punches, duck, slip, dodge… All movements were repeated multiple times and brought to automatism. The main emphasis on the correct implementation of technical actions. No moving forward without perfecting the studied action. Universal base and LOTS of boxing training everywhere - in an army, schools, factory or colledge, for children, soldiers, marines, workers...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrz5fVy9hLE

- Pair drills in gloves. For example, for the first round, number 1 is doing only jab, number 2 - any defense he like, but if it's slip to the left, he then continues with left hook to the body, left hook to the head, right cross. Next round - vice versa. No mitts, all to the head-body full speed, the defender uses blocks, etc.

- Basic movement «Челнок»
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fl8dJZqv3A

- Unification and codification of defensive / attacking actions for each type of opponent: southpaw, swarmer, slugger, out-boxer… All actions are described in numerous textbooks, manuals, training films. So every boxer knew how to box with any opponent.

Vs lefty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmaTl43XbrY&list=PLDWzJTQ7JZJPz-zYeosVSlVOr7jRX9vyR&index=2

Vs cuban boxers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHkEI9vZ5TM&list=PLT7j8cCAd8eppkiL_RI8RkiBnp1q_U31F&index=7

Working on the inside
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmkQicZ63zE&list=PLDWzJTQ7JZJPz-zYeosVSlVOr7jRX9vyR&index=4

- A system of general physical and special physical training in the form of circular training ("круговая тренировка").
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONqiELRuahk

The list goes on… ^-)

Main weaknesses of the old soviet school:

- No cutting the angles due to the style of movement;
- Underdeveloped inside boxing (was invented only in 1969, with the release of the book
«Ближний бой в боксе» by Ogurenkov E.I.
https://studfiles.net/preview/1715289/
- Emphasis on out-boxing not K.O.ing opponent, i.e. amateur point-style.

Ex.
Soviet boxing-specific exercises:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS9UMk04_mM&t=165s push-push
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4pg9uZEle4&t=108s top 3 coordination drills
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IQQCxtVJWs&t=39s sparring drill

Therefore, in the case of the coach Frolov, whom you are discussing, the options he offers are precisely HIS vision of boxing training, and not at all the ultimate truth of soviet school (ultimate truth does not exist ).
Just like not all of your trainers teach Cus d’Amato style or «philly shell», same applies to our boxing gyms. For example, your Kenny Weldon with his «evaluation line» and other technical drills is very close to what we were given in our training sessions.

P.S. Feel free to ask questions.

P.P.S. Sorry for my English.

Thank you for contributing. In the U.S. it is difficult to find anyone who loves the Sport more than themselves, and it's tough to find many with a distinct lineage and the ability to communicate tested and reliable means of boxing well. While I do think competitively towards other people and places, it's still good to be able to openly communicate these notions, and it goes a long way to keep the Sport alive.

I did notice a distinct difference in just sheer aggression between Countries. Uzbek and Kazak seem quite aggressive in nature normally. Or at the very least, always seeking a big punch. Not much in the ways of going back. Whereas Ukrainian and Russian seem much better at boxing defensively. But when we say "Eastern Bloc" as a whole, we're mainly just referring to the development that was done just before and during the Cold War...when U.S.S.R. and Cuba really began to hunt for medals against the U.S., who dominated at the time. We are aware that since then, things have become much more individualized and nuanced by the region. But you can almost always spot a fighter trained by that system in the most basic sense. How they step, how they throw punches. And a good eye can even spot when someone has been trained BY someone who had learned in that system.

BTW - you're correct in that inside fighting is a weakness. And also response to opponents closing distance. A while back one of my former students sparred Murodjon Akhmadaliev, who was #3 in the World at the time. My guy was knocked down early, but wanted to continue. He kept moving away from Ka-ka's (seriously, that's his nickname lol) power. This was a mistake and kept him in perpetual danger. Between rounds I told him to lure Ka-ka into moving forward, then right when he wants to attack, step in quickly. It gave him complete control:

 

[SandisLL]

Against the U.S?
Soviet ideology denied professional sport ( formally ) and U.S there were just one political opponent...
Democratic Germany ( soviet ) assigned more money for sport than Federative Germany ( capitalist ) to develop sports, from swimming till wrestling to prove that communism is better than Federative Germany's capitalism etc.
On paper they didn't had pro boxers, wrestlers and hockey players ( soviet countries frequently formally " hired " their top hockey players in army or militsya and called them " amateurs " , what amazing formality, some former "employees" amateurs later worked in NHL teams, what a " amateurs " they were ).

 

[Sinister]

Against the U.S?
Soviet ideology denied professional sport ( formally ) and U.S there were just one political opponent...
Democratic Germany ( soviet ) assigned more money for sport than Federative Germany ( capitalist ) to develop sports, from swimming till wrestling to prove that communism is better than Federative Germany's capitalism etc.
On paper they didn't had pro boxers, wrestlers and hockey players ( soviet countries frequently formally " hired " their top hockey players in army or militsya and called them " amateurs " , what amazing formality, some former "employees" amateurs later worked in NHL teams, what a " amateurs " they were ).

Against the U.S., for Olympic glory. As the deniel of Professional Sport was used as a statement against capitalism. So the main area of competition in the "pure" sense, was in the Amateurs.

If you remember this was even at the foundation of Rocky IV, where Drago was the Olympic Champion who was pit to defeat American ideologies in his first Professional fight. Lol

 

[SandisLL]

I think medals they wished cos propaganda reasons.

Formal amateur status for you as a boxer or wrestler in pre perestroika era in SU might be with such outcome;
you are employee somewhere, if high level athlete, then on paper .... They pay you " salary " and some support but formally you box/ wrestle for fun.
This means, they might pay you premial, bonuses, gifts but this isn't mandatory for them in general.
You don't know, they will pay you 1000 or maybe 10000 plus some gifts like flat ( maybe right to use not as your property or even as property ) plus car for the same medal...
All just as good will act, not mandatory for them to do this.
For this reason athlete was insecure about future.

Cos capitalism is bad, you at least oficially/ formally could not earn as self employed coach, for example charge someone even 1 buck for boxing sparring ...
Capitalism was considered so bad, that you were not allowed to by something for 1 buck and sell for 1 buck 1 cent. To by somtehing with intent to sell for higher price was for them considered as evil.
Black market they had, but with risk, because by their law this was criminal offence.

In this atmosphere of course they were not able to admit that they have evil...professional athletes like capitalists.
This ridiculous mascarade, when A+ level athletes, even hockey players on paper were amateurs, playing in World Championship in free from work time.
Funny.

 

[Sinister]

Indeed. But in a lot of facets it pushed innovation. Where Americans became spoiled and complacent. Most of them, even then ones with tremendous talent, rarely have access to the education needed to facilitate it. Then the ones that do, dont have the discipline to listen to the instruction because all everyone around them does is tell them how awesome they are and how good they'll do.

The student I showed above quit with me and went with the kind of trainer who strokes his dick in the gym (figuratively). I took him from 10 straight losses to #6 in the U.S. eventually, and then he decided he knows enough technicality, doesnt need to mature, and rather needs someone who primarily does mitts. Hes still decent at boxing, but he hasn't been as sharp as those second two rounds in a year.

He'll be an okay gatekeeper once he turns Pro. Unless something snaps and he changes.

 

[SandisLL]

About point fighting style without emphasis in all their boxing I don't agree.
If just point fighting, why such attention to legwork and height changes etc stuff?
In 50 ies they even specified ammy rerords that xx wins by KO etc.
SU had boxing between WW1 and WW2 and after WW2 they started offer free education in universities for wrestling and boxing trainers...
I have doubt that before maybe 1956 th they had enough good connection with Cuba.
Before WW1 ( pre 1914 ) Carist Russia had boxing, most likely highly influenced by english - german " schools " and their russian barecnuckle stuff ( this really with emphasis to KO/ TKO ASAP ).
So most likely first base in Soviet boxing was not with Cuban roots.
Ballet Carist Russia invented from France, some stuff for fencing too.
In 1956-1966 connections with Cuba they had more and then maybe ....Cuban style appeared.

 

[Sinister]

I'm not sure what you're disputing. Before the Cold War Cuba's boxing roots were more western and the styles reflected that. Kid Chocolate and others of his ilk weren't entirely stylistically different than their Western counterparts. However, when allied with the USSR during the Cold War, they basically took everything the S.U. instructors gave them and ran with it. Many of the older Cuban coaches even still speak Russian.

 

[SandisLL]

Many of the older Cuban coaches even still speak Russian.

About this I have no doubt : SU was friendly with communist Cuba, Cuba recieved assistance in tehnical fields etc from SU and there reason why Cuban specialists used russian language.
Simply I assumed, that SU inhernited roots for style from Cuba, but now looks that Cuba inhernited from SU.
U.S is close to Cuba and of course U.S people knows about cubans more than europeans for this reason.

 

[Sinister]

About this I have no doubt : SU was friendly with communist Cuba, Cuba recieved assistance in tehnical fields etc from SU and there reason why Cuban specialists used russian language.
Simply I assumed, that SU inhernited roots for style from Cuba, but now looks that Cuba inhernited from SU.
U.S is close to Cuba and of course U.S people knows about cubans more than europeans for this reason.

During Bautista's reign Havana was the Las Vegas of the World. Gaming, nightlife, prostitution, the works. Of course high profile boxing was right in the middle of all that as it goes hand in hand with gambling. When this ceased, something had to be accomplished to uphold the ideals. Pairing with the USSR wasn't a terrible idea in that regard.

Sad part is Americans have the same weaknesses now as we did then. You cant tell them this story without them getting all "Yeah!!! U-S-A!!! U-S-A!! Fuck those Commies!!!" on you. Ahh, arrogance begotten from ignorance

 

[SandisLL]

http://rusboxing.ru/about/history/

There is article about sport boxing history in Russia from Carist Russia times.
They wrote that like that sports boxing in Carist Russia started from french, english " roots ".
Article is in russian.

 

[Dexter]

1. Guys, the "roots" of the Russian pre-revolutionary boxing are 90 percent French, since there were two main centers for boxing development - Moscow, where the former professional boxer champion of France Arkady Kharlampiev (whose son we owe the development of sambo wrestling) played a big role, and in St. Petersburg, where the main founder of boxing was Ernest Ivanovich Lustallo, whose last name speaks for itself ;-).

2. Regarding professional / amateur sports, as our colleague quite rightly remarked, all Soviet amateurs were actually professionals, only formally enlisted in work collectives, in the army, etc. Why, even now, many amateur boxers from Russia are reluctant to become professionals ? Everything is very simple - to be an amateur is much more profitable in material terms. Professional boxing in Russia, unfortunately, practically does not exist, the level of fights is very weak, wages are very small, so the fighters have two choices - to go west or to remain an amateur.

3. About "amateur style" with the preference for points over a knockout punch. In Soviet boxing, there were several completely different eras. In the 50s of the last century, the Soviet post-war boxing was very reminiscent of a professional one, with a cult of knockout blows, etc.



You will laugh, but then there was a complete change in the style of fighting, when they began to give preference to out-boxers, and almost disqualify punchers for knockout blows . Now it seems idiotic, but that's exactly how it was. Subsequently, in the years 1960-1970, the talent of our famous coach Victor Ivanovich Ogurenkov, who can be called the founder of the modern Soviet boxing school, was revealed.
It was he who coached the dream team, which successfully opposed the American and Cuban national teams in all championships and Olympic games - Oleg Grigoriev, Stanislav Stepashkin, Boris Lagutin, Valery Popenchenko, Dan Poznyak.


Boris Lagutin


Mr. KO Popenchenko


Victor Ageev

4. To the question of Cuban boxing, its development and the influence of the USSR. One of my coaches lived in Cuba for a long time, so this is what it looked like.
Initially, boxing in Cuba was latin-american style, with great influence from the US. It was an absolutely distinctive style, completely unlike modern Cuban boxing. If we look at сuban boxers, the main fighters are a mixture of Hispanics with blacks. They are very strong guys, capable of withstanding heavy training, and most importantly, very capable of learning. Add to this that dancing is very popular in Cuba - and you will get exactly that hellish mixture that gave the world the deadly Cuban boxing. One of the signature Cuban punches of that period is a chep or "hatchet/machette punch" in russian. One of the traditional activities on Liberty Island is reed felling. Workers in a certain way hold a machete. Reed chopped. For an experienced worker, all movements are brought to automatism. The machete technique migrated to the boxing gym and found grateful soil there.


Machette punch

IIRC, there're 5 cuban pre-Castro pro-boxers in the Boxing Hall of Fame.


Gerardo "Kid Gavelan" González


Eligio “Kid Chocolate” Sardinas

After the overthrow of dictator Batista (I hope I wrote the name correctly, 'cause history has never been my forte) and the arrival of Fidel Castro (and "death" of pro-boxing on Cuba in 1960), Soviet boxing specialists appeared in Cuba - Chervonenko, Ogurenkov and Gradopolov (one of our famous old-school coaches and boxing historians) were in the first wave. Castro wanted world fame in amateur boxing.
So, children began to be trained from the age of 5. Each trainer had complete systematized information for each fighter: everything was recorded - height, weight, all anthropometric data that changed as they grew older, the manner of boxing, all punches, movements. In the Cuban boxing school there is the concept of "second year." You practiced the technical action until your mentor was pleased with him - an hour, a day, a week, a month, and only after that went on to the next. Until you are perfect in any component, you will not advance any further. As they say, paso a paso - “step by step”. Cubans are characterized by an authoritarian form of the training process, when the coach is always right and you cannot argue with him or you will be kicked out of gym. There are two rosters in the Russian national boxing team - the first and second, and the Cuban national team have FIVE. Fierce competition.



In 1964, a coach appeared who trained the Cuban national team till 2000s - Alcides Sagarra. He graduated from the Institute of Physical Culture in Kiev and returned to Cuba. 47 olympic medals and about 80 in world competitions - it's all his merit. Rigidity, discipline, total submission to leadership - basis of his training style.
Cubans are recruited by the principle of anthropometry - with equal weight, preference is given to a higher athlete. One of the first exercises for a beginner - you would have your hands tied behind your back and you should have avoided blows with the help of movements and slipping, bobbing, weaving. Minimize the number of hits and ALWAYS keep cool. And only after mastering this, your hands were freed and the other options for defensive action began to be set. In general, the movement technique in a Cuban school stands in a special place, unlike the Soviet, where the "chelnok" was preferred. Soviet specialists did not retrain anyone, they simply systematized the existing, leaving a special Cuban approach. Cuban amateur boxers are as versatile as possible, when they go to match, they always have in reserve not one or two plans for the fight, but many. One thing does not work out - the Cuban instantly rebuilds, changes tactics, begins to act differently. Another of the distinguishing features is the increase in pace from round to round.


Teofilo Stevenson


Felix Savon

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

@Dexter thank you so much for bringing these knowledge bombs and dropping 'em on the table.

...also, I really appreciate your name and I hope it was chosen in opposition to Sinister.