Cryptocurrency - a few tips from an old hand

[faustian]

https://coincentral.com/what-is-ethos/

In addition to a well-designed wallet, Ethos plans to offer transfer and exchange services. This is an essential part of the puzzle of becoming a complete asset management solution. Ideally, you’ll be able to rebalance your cryptocurrency holdings all from the Ethos platform.​

This means exchanging cryptocurrencies instantly. It also means the ability to trade any cryptocurrency pair, using the ETHOS coin as a liquidity network. You’ll be able to deposit and withdraw funds from external wallets, and Ethos will support conversion to fiat in the near future.​

What could possibly go wrong?

Ethos billing themselves as an asset management platform means they understand most cryptocurrencies are tradable securities. According to most experts, it’s only a matter of time until the cryptocurrency market gets regulated.

Ethos is building their platform with compliance in mind. They’re U.S.-based, so they’re focusing on North American securities law. The fiat gateway will come with built-in KYC and AML measures. However, operating a basic wallet still won’t require identity verification.

You’ll also be able to easily export your account activity to make tax reporting easier.

The team has also emphasized that the ETHOS coin is meant to be a functional token. This is in hopes of avoiding securities regulation. According to their FAQ:

“ETHOS is not a security, or Tokenized Security, because it does not meet the legal definition of a security applicable in the United States, Canada, Singapore, United Kingdom or any other OECD jurisdiction. In the United States, this is more commonly referred to the ‘Howey Test’”
​

I mean, what are you guys looking to score here. These "tokens" are neither a securitized asset nor an actual currency. In theory the tokens will be the magic ticket to gain access to the Ethos wallet. lmao what? This bridge metaphor is even more concerning if I'm someone who's actually taking this seriously:

https://www.ethos.io/2017/09/14/a-metaphor-for-functional-tokens/

This is from the Ethos homepage:

https://www.ethos.io/​

Unlock the future of investment. Empower the world. Our mission is to make the daunting cryptocurrency market accessible to everyone, accelerate adoption of blockchain technology and democratize ownership of cryptocurrencies. Ethos harnesses the power of design, technology and social intelligence to create a breakthrough solution that will enable everyone to participate in the New Economy.

We’re putting the power back in the hands of the people – where it belongs. Join us.
​

Weird, kinda flies in the face of the whole idea that you need to buy up these tokens in order to even access the platform

Again, I'm just kinda baffled by you cryptocurrency enthusiasts. Like what exactly do you believe you're investing in?

 

[Nik123]

^ I'm baffled by the strong views expressed here using snippets from their website. The whitepaper, if you bother reading it, explains the utility of the token especially in the context of liquidity on their ecosystem, which is what people are investing in.

Tokens with true functional utility, a la Ethereum, have grown exponentially in price over the last year. These tokens are neither securities or currencies, they represent the birth of a new asset class. That said, there are hundreds of crypto projects which do not really need a token, and will likely fail.

This was admitted to by the heads of the SEC and CFTC just weeks ago, and due respect was given to said birth of new asset class.

It's okay, not everyone understands what's going at this juncture.


Edit - link for further reading:
https://www.ethos.io/2018/01/18/balancing-decentralization - -purpose-utility-of-ethos-tokens-within-an-inclusive-financial-ecosystem/

 

[faustian]

^ I'm baffled by the strong views expressed here using snippets from their website. The whitepaper, if you bother reading it, explains the utility of the token especially in the context of liquidity on their ecosystem, which is what people are investing in.

Tokens with true functional utility, a la Ethereum, have grown exponentially in price over the last year. These tokens are neither securities or currencies, they represent the birth of a new asset class. That said, there are hundreds of crypto projects which do not really need a token, and will likely fail.

This was admitted to by the heads of the SEC and CFTC just weeks ago, and due respect was given to said birth of new asset class.

It's okay, not everyone understands what's going at this juncture.

But you can't monopolize a currency... er... token

Is the Ethos platform really gonna reject anything that isn't an Ethos token?

I like the idea that there's an actual tangible innovation backing Ethos but I just don't see the point in investing in tokens when it's pretty obvious Ethos won't limit itself to token denominated transactions (they seem pretty intent on adopting fiat payment). Then reading the bridge metaphor really set off some red flags if that's the actual pitch to invest in these tokens

The Ethos website makes very clear that the tokens are, in reality, an intended currency:

https://www.ethos.io/token/

In short ETHOS Tokens will:

• Be the payment mechanism for accessing and using services on the Ethos platform
• Pay for transaction fees and API calls
• Enable liquidity to help with changes in user asset allocations

However, ETHOS Tokens will NOT:

• Pay dividends or profits of any kind
• Enable holders to vote on company matters, or
• Control the company in any way

Then it continues:

In the future, Ethos Tokens may be used to send value, similar to PayPal. This is where we hope to get to and believe that it will require navigating technical and legal solutions with care and expertise.
​

Again I ask, what's the incentive here? Why am I supposed to believe this token will revolutionize the very concept of currency? We already have these things called credit cards which offer greater transactional protection and aren't pegged to fluctuating speculation

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

@faustian I was reading their website with lots of questions marks and I think you should pose those questions to them.

 

[Nik123]

But you can't monopolize a currency... er... token

Is the Ethos platform really gonna reject anything that isn't an Ethos token?

I like the idea that there's an actual tangible innovation backing Ethos but I just don't see the point in investing in tokens when it's pretty obvious Ethos won't limit itself to token denominated transactions (they seem pretty intent on adopting fiat payment). Then reading the bridge metaphor really set off some red flags if that's the actual pitch to invest in these tokens

The Ethos website makes very clear that the tokens are, in reality, an intended currency:

https://www.ethos.io/token/

In short ETHOS Tokens will:

• Be the payment mechanism for accessing and using services on the Ethos platform
• Pay for transaction fees and API calls
• Enable liquidity to help with changes in user asset allocations

However, ETHOS Tokens will NOT:

• Pay dividends or profits of any kind
• Enable holders to vote on company matters, or
• Control the company in any way

Then it continues:

In the future, Ethos Tokens may be used to send value, similar to PayPal. This is where we hope to get to and believe that it will require navigating technical and legal solutions with care and expertise.
​

Again I ask, what's the incentive here? Why am I supposed to believe this token will revolutionize the very concept of currency? We already have these things called credit cards which offer greater transactional protection and aren't pegged to fluctuating speculation

I think you are missing the point, completely.

So let's address your questions one by one.

''Is the Ethos platform really gonna reject anything that isn't an Ethos token?''

No, quite the opposite. They will enable you to trade any other currency and crypto asset. But within their ecosystem, there will be several additional benefits provided by the Ethos token - eg. access to top trader predictions, reduced fees/commissions, and additional wallet features. This is pretty standard across the crypto space. Secondly, the token will be the sole bridge, and 'constant' in the ecosystem when trading crypto assets with traditional securities.

''Why am I supposed to believe this token will revolutionize the very concept of currency?''

You are not. Ethos is not looking to revolutionalize the very concept of currency, they are looking to provide a gateway for mass adoption into the world of cryptocurrencies. The word 'cryptocurrency' is in itself a misnomer, as most of these projects do not intend to serve as currencies at all.

''Again I ask, what's the incentive here?''

Multiple incentives, as outlined above and in the article I linked.

''We already have these things called credit cards which offer greater transactional protection and aren't pegged to fluctuating speculation?''

Thanks for the enlightenment. These things called credit cards do not handle crypto transactions. When cryptocurrency payments become a thing, and they will...traditional credit cards will not be used (you cannot buy or trade traditional assets using credit cards either). So here comes Ethos with yet another value proposition. Debit cards specifically wired to handle crypto transactions, supported by checking accounts focused on crypto transactions.

Again, all of this is outlined in the whitepaper but you keep asking the same circular questions based on snippets on their website.

If you want to play detective, at least do some research first.

And another tip, if you still need more answers to satiate yourself, download Telegram on your phone, join the Ethos group, and ask Shingo or Stephen Corliss your questions directly. All of your questions have been answered by them a thousand times already....but just in case you think you are bringing shocking revelations to the table, they will put your mind at ease.

Stephen is an ex-BlackRock COO, and has decades of financial services experience, so maybe you can test his knowledge a little with your vast background in this space.

 

[faustian]

@faustian I was reading their website with lots of questions marks and I think you should pose those questions to them.

From their Whitepaper pdf:

http://www.ethos.io/Ethos_Whitepaper.pdf

In short ETHOS Tokens will :

• Reduce costs for consumers for crypto-related transactions.
• Enable low-cost blockchain applications for developers.
• Create a scalable micropayment transfer mechanism for all platform services.
• Support an open financial ecosystem that bridges traditional and crypto assets
• Enable verified source of funds and identity for transactions through the Ethos ecosystem.
​

So I see the point, that the tokens offer convenience and savings when using the Ethos platform. Okay and gas cards and Delta Dollars and PF Chang's loyalty program cards all do the same within their respective industry. If I fly a lot I'd definitely look into using an airline credit card but I'm not gonna go invest in Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Cards simply because it's a very viable payment method for people who use airplanes

 

[Nik123]

From their Whitepaper pdf:

http://www.ethos.io/Ethos_Whitepaper.pdf

In short ETHOS Tokens will :

• Reduce costs for consumers for crypto-related transactions.
• Enable low-cost blockchain applications for developers.
• Create a scalable micropayment transfer mechanism for all platform services.
• Support an open financial ecosystem that bridges traditional and crypto assets
• Enable verified source of funds and identity for transactions through the Ethos ecosystem.
​

So I see the point, that the tokens offer convenience and savings when using the Ethos platform. Okay and gas cards and Delta Dollars and PF Chang's loyalty program cards all do the same within their respective industry. If I fly a lot I'd definitely look into using an airline credit card but I'm not gonna go invest in Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Cards simply because it's a very viable payment method for people who use airplanes

SO here's the main differentiator between your analogy and what I see as the true value driver for the Ethos token.

There is a hierarchy in the crypto space that drives the value of tokens. In descending order of value -

1. Infrastructure tokens - these are required to build applications off the core blockchain infrastructure (Ethereum, ArcBlock, Cardano ...and soon to be ETHOS, will explain why)


2. Utility tokens (AGI, POWR, PRL, etc)

3. Privacy coins (Monero, Dash, PivX, etc)

4. Currencies (Bitcoin, Litcoin, etc)


Now 3 and 4 are often inter-changeable.

But the point remains that infrastructure tokens carry the highest intrinsic value.

Now ETHOS is not just going to offer benefits for using their ecosystem. Using their BedRock API, they are going to enable financial institutions to actually build applications off their core infrastructure, and for this the ETHOS token becomes a necessity due to how blockchain fees are structured (used as 'gas').

So in essence, Ethos is going to move from 2. to 1., and therefore the value of the token is forecasted to rise along the same lines as Ethereum has before it.

So there is a clear precedent, and there is clear intrinsic value to the token.

As I said (and as agreed by the US regulators), this is a new asset class - real world analogies are of limited use here.

 

[faustian]

I think you are missing the point, completely.

So let's address your questions one by one.

''Is the Ethos platform really gonna reject anything that isn't an Ethos token?''

No, quite the opposite. They will enable you to trade any other currency and crypto asset. But within their ecosystem, there will be several additional benefits provided by the Ethos token - eg. access to top trader predictions, reduced fees/commissions, and additional wallet features. This is pretty standard across the crypto space. Secondly, the token will be the sole bridge, and 'constant' in the ecosystem when trading crypto assets with traditional securities.

So is it possible to use the Ethos platform without tokens?

''Why am I supposed to believe this token will revolutionize the very concept of currency?''

You are not. Ethos is not looking to revolutionalize the very concept of currency, they are looking to provide a gateway for mass adoption into the world of cryptocurrencies. The word 'cryptocurrency' is in itself a misnomer, as most of these projects do not intend to serve as currencies at all.

You just got done telling me the tokens will be the official medium of exchange in the Ethos ecosystem

''Again I ask, what's the incentive here?''

Multiple incentives, as outlined above and in the article I linked.

So Ethos tokens come in handy when using the Ethos platform. Okay that's great but I'm not seeing where the investment potential is here. If the market value for Ethos tokens becomes greater than the financial benefit of actually using Ethos tokens on the Ethos platform, then what?

''We already have these things called credit cards which offer greater transactional protection and aren't pegged to fluctuating speculation?''

Thanks for the enlightenment. These things called credit cards do not handle crypto transactions.

Not yet

When cryptocurrency payments become a thing, and they will...traditional credit cards will not be used (you cannot buy or trade traditional assets using credit cards either).

Are you sure about that? Not saying it's something I'd ever do, but there are various ways to invest and trade using credit cards

So here comes Ethos with yet another value proposition. Debit cards specifically wired to handle crypto transactions, supported by checking accounts focused on crypto transactions.

Debit cards and checking accounts set up for crypto transactions. Not really seeing the point of the middleman role of Ethos tokens

Again, all of this is outlined in the whitepaper but you keep asking the same circular questions based on snippets on their website.

If you want to play detective, at least do some research first.

I read the website and Whitepaper and all I'm looking for is a simple explanation of what I'd be investing in exactly with Ethos tokens

And another tip, if you still need more answers to satiate yourself, download Telegram on your phone, join the Ethos group, and ask Shingo or Stephen Corliss your questions directly. All of your questions have been answered by them a thousand times already....but just in case you think you are bringing shocking revelations to the table, they will put your mind at ease.

Sounds reassuring. So with my mind at ease, who do I make the check out to?

Stephen is an ex-BlackRock COO, and has decades of financial services experience, so maybe you can test his knowledge a little with your vast background in this space.

I'm sure he knows exactly what he's doing

 

[faustian]

SO here's the main differentiator between your analogy and what I see as the true value driver for the Ethos token.

There is a hierarchy in the crypto space that drives the value of tokens. In descending order of value -

1. Infrastructure tokens - these are required to build applications off the core blockchain infrastructure (Ethereum, ArcBlock, Cardano ...and soon to be ETHOS, will explain why)


2. Utility tokens (AGI, POWR, PRL, etc)

3. Privacy coins (Monero, Dash, PivX, etc)

4. Currencies (Bitcoin, Litcoin, etc)


Now 3 and 4 are often inter-changeable.

But the point remains that infrastructure tokens carry the highest intrinsic value.

Now ETHOS is not just going to offer benefits for using their ecosystem. Using their BedRock API, they are going to enable financial institutions to actually build applications off their core infrastructure, and for this the ETHOS token becomes a necessity due to how blockchain fees are structured (used as 'gas').

So in essence, Ethos is going to move from 2. to 1., and therefore the value of the token is forecasted to rise along the same lines as Ethereum has before it.

So there is a clear precedent, and there is clear intrinsic value to the token.

As I said (and as agreed by the US regulators), this is a new asset class - real world analogies are of limited use here.

Ok that's starting to make sense. But at what point does the driven up market value of the tokens exceed the intrinsic value? What happens then? When this ceiling hits it's gonna be a concrete ceiling, these tokens aren't stores of value like precious medals or actual currencies. Eventually their value will be easily and objectively measurable with little room for speculation

 

[SwamiLeoni]

I’ve never looked into Ethos at all but from reading about it here, it looks to function the exact same way as QASH will be intended to be used. It also has much of the same functionability as BNB and KuCoin. Provides discounts for trading, can pay for services ect. It’s a utility token. I have a little bit invested in QASH, but to me that’s a long shot and a crap shoot. I got in below a $1 so I’m letting it ride until World Book is released. After the liquid exchange releases, I’ll reassess my holdings. Will Ethos have Master Nodes?

 

[JonesBones]

What is the point all of these coins if they all just rise and fall with Bitcoin? Every new coin is a new beanie baby.

You guys are never seeing anything near 20k again either.

 

[Nik123]

Ok that's starting to make sense. But at what point does the driven up market value of the tokens exceed the intrinsic value? What happens then? When this ceiling hits it's gonna be a concrete ceiling, these tokens aren't stores of value like precious medals or actual currencies. Eventually their value will be easily and objectively measurable with little room for speculation

''But at what point does the driven up market value of the tokens exceed the intrinsic value? What happens then?''

If you follow the market, you will see corrections on a daily (hourly) basis. These corrections are fundamentally driven by market value exceeding (perceived) internal value. So to your question, these corrections are what happen when market value exceeds intrinsic value (and the reverse prompts a bull market).

''..these tokens aren't a store of value''

Well most of them are not meant to be. And besides, what makes a store of value? Anything we choose. If enough human beings believe something is valuable as a collective, than it is. Most 'real currencies' are backed by nothing but debt. Mutual trust in any given currency is what gives it any real value. Even gold as a metal has limited use, and other metals are more scarce so it's value is also largely because of mutual trust in it being valuable.

''Eventually their value will be easily and objectively measurable with little room for speculation''

Indeed. At which point you will not be able to make the same profits. Which is WHY people are investing now. Which was your very original question - what do we all see in the value of investing in this sphere.

There, we've come a full glorious circle - but I've actually enjoyed this discourse.

 

[JonesBones]

^ I'm baffled by the strong views expressed here using snippets from their website. The whitepaper, if you bother reading it, explains the utility of the token especially in the context of liquidity on their ecosystem, which is what people are investing in.

Tokens with true functional utility, a la Ethereum, have grown exponentially in price over the last year. These tokens are neither securities or currencies, they represent the birth of a new asset class. That said, there are hundreds of crypto projects which do not really need a token, and will likely fail.

This was admitted to by the heads of the SEC and CFTC just weeks ago, and due respect was given to said birth of new asset class.

It's okay, not everyone understands what's going at this juncture.


Edit - link for further reading:
https://www.ethos.io/2018/01/18/balancing-decentralization - -purpose-utility-of-ethos-tokens-within-an-inclusive-financial-ecosystem/

I understand the price is dropping while the rest of the market is up.

 

[SwamiLeoni]

What is the point all of these coins if they all just rise and fall with Bitcoin? Every new coin is a new beanie baby.

You guys are never seeing anything near 20k again either.

Sure bud. I thought the same thing when BTC was $4000.

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

What is the point all of these coins if they all just rise and fall with Bitcoin?

that's the trend now, but that's not how things will always be.

 

[JonesBones]

Sure bud. I thought the same thing when BTC was $4000.

A 20,000 dollar price is much harder to hold up than 4 thousand. It keeps getting pushed back below 10,000. The fad is dying. You should worry about Bitcoin getting support at 10k first.

 

[SwamiLeoni]

''..these tokens aren't a store of value''

• Perfect control of your funds with no middle man
• Contracts and applications without counter-party risk
• Enhanced security (no central point of attack and spamming is expensive)
• Micro transactions
• Speed
• Transfer cost reduction
• Inflation protection
• For merchants: no charge-backs
• Running applications on a blockchain as a one stop shop without server and security requirements.
• Digitization of identity
• Digitization of assets
• Smart logistics
• Smart taxation
• Transparent accounting
• Notarization
• File storage with unchangeable time stamps
• Asset possession logs
• Clearinghouse enhancement
• Monetization and exchange of data
• Voting
• Capital raising with less friction than stock offerings
  
• Investment diversification
• Programmable trusts
• Censorship free communication
• Developing country banking
• Decentralized Autonomous Organizations (done correctly)
• Cross-border payments

 

[Nik123]

I understand the price is dropping while the rest of the market is up.

The price of what? Ethos? If that is what you understand, I can't really help you sir.

Last time I checked, like a minute ago - the whole market is dropping (fluctuations in the range of -3 to -15%, Ethos being on the lower end of that scale).

 

[JonesBones]

As has been said, many people came late to the party and bought at over 12k. Maybe even 20k or anywhere in between. So, when the shit hits about 12, you are gonna get a selloff. People trying to get out on those highs.

 

[SwamiLeoni]

A 20,000 dollar price is much harder to hold up than 4 thousand. It keeps getting pushed back below 10,000. The fad is dying. You should worry about Bitcoin getting support at 10k first.

It dropped to $6k early Feb and jumped up to almost $12k in a matter of a couple of weeks. It’s a slow process, but BTC has the best fundamentals out of any crypto and an incredible track record. It’ll hit $20k again and this ‘fad’ will continue.