Criteria for GOAT

[pankrat]

How many decision wins does Jones have in the UFC? (its 10 btw)

GSP has 12.

They have the same number of fights

And frankly you have to factor in strength of opposition. A lot harder to finish tougher opponents.

Also GSP fought at WW (and MW once), Silva at MW and LHW, Jones at LHW and Fedor at HW. The heavier the weight class the higher the finish rate.

Plus the consensus was that Hendricks was absolutely juiced to the gills for his fight with GSP, a factor that is fairly obvious given he went 1-5 missing weight 4 times post USADA.

Jon Jones has finished more tittle defenses than GSP, which talking about strenght of competition obviously makes a difference
I think Silva is far and away the best finisher anyways.

If we talk about PEDs.. yeah you are definitely right about Hendricks but we get into a lot of speculation.

I also think is not an accident that Silva came to UFC as a lanky MW who had just fought at WW some months before beating Leben, and in few years in USA the guy was one of the biggest, heaviest MWs.

 

[RockyLockridge]

this would clearly make Jones #1, GSP would come in 2nd followed by Fedor and Anderson finishing 4th.

What do make if these criteria?

This honestly seems reasonable, but if you added mighty mouse in there he'd be 2nd or 3rd

 

[Takes Two To Tango]

It's going to be very hard to make a group of people who are naturally bias to the fighter they love come to a consensus on what the criteria should be for being the GOAT.

 

[TankAbbott4Eva]

There’s is much discussion about who is the greatest of all time here on Sherdog. I thought it would be cool to make some definite criteria through which we could compare fighters. Here are my takes:

1. Title fight record
2. UFC/Pride record
3. Longest UFC win streak
4. Multiple weight championships
5. Strength of competition
6. H2H competition
7. Overall MMA record
8. Minor league titles
9. Overall skill set
10. Finishing rate

Let’s take the 4 usual suspects (Jones, GSP, Fedor, Anderson) and compare them by these criteria.

1. Jones, GSP, Anderson, Fedor
2. Jones, GSP, Fedor, Anderson
3. Jones, Anderson, GSP, Fedor
4. GSP, Anderson, Fedor, Jones
5. Jones, GSP, Fedor, Anderson
6. Jones, GSP, Anderson, Fedor
7. Jones, GSP, Fedor, Anderson
8. Fedor, Anderson, Jones, GSP
9. Jones, GSP, Anderson, Fedor
10. Fedor, Anderson, Jones, GSP

this would clearly make Jones #1, GSP would come in 2nd followed by Fedor and Anderson finishing 4th.

What do make if these criteria?

Well at least you tried to quantify your answer which is a good effort, it is an opinion based thing of course and I don't disagree with your conclusion.

 

[DagOban**]

The only criteria if Fedorness.

 

[Mike]

To some people a win is a win? Like doesn't matter if you finish your opponent in a Fight or not?
How stupid is that people?

Ben Henderson was a great LW but is not considered the GOAT LW. If he had fi ished all the opponents he took to flip coin decs, he would have a better case. But he didnt

Anyways for those who "a win is a win" there is no point in GOAT talks. It's a matter of checking in Wikipedia who has more W's in the record and that's it

A decisive decision win is completely valid, yes. Obviously robberies or close decisions hold less value. Not everyone holds finishing as the be all end all metric. And frankly it's easier to get finishes when you're fighting in a weak division like Anderson was.

 

[Fioretti]

A decisive decision win is completely valid, yes. Obviously robberies or close decisions hold less value. Not everyone holds finishing as the be all end all metric. And frankly it's easier to get finishes when you're fighting in a weak division like Anderson was.

Silva's opponents were finished less both before and after they fought him than GSP's opponents were. He fought more champions than GSP did, and had less rematches.

One major flaw of the GSP fanbase's claim to how great GSP's opposition was is that they always ignore the fact that he had 9 fights against only 4 people, and lost two (arguably three) of those fights. Two of the four spent most of their careers at LW. Fighting the same people over and over again doesn't make your schedule harder or your division more stacked. In reality, it means the fucking opposite. Almost one third of his entire career was against only four people.

Silva finished more because he's a better finisher, wasn't afraid to take risks, and he was that much better than his opponents. He did it greater.

 

[Barteh]

Silva's opponents were finished less both before and after they fought him than GSP's opponents were. He fought more champions than GSP did, and had less rematches.

One major flaw of the GSP fanbase's claim to how great GSP's opposition was is that they always ignore the fact that he had 9 fights against only 4 people, and lost two (arguably three) of those fights. Two of the four spent most of their careers at LW. Fighting the same people over and over again doesn't make your schedule harder or your division more stacked. In reality, it means the fucking opposite. Almost one third of his entire career was against only four people.

Silva finished more because he's a better finisher, wasn't afraid to take risks, and he was that much better than his opponents. He did it greater.

This is why it's so subjective. I don't think greatness can be defined by numbers, while some others do think so.

Silva vs. Forrest and Silva vs. Belfort alone are greater than anything GSP has done in his entire career. Fedor, being a relatively small HW dominating the best HWs at the time at their own style and going undefeated for 10 eyars is greater than anything else has done. Of course both of those are just opinions. At least TS has the OBVIOUS top 4 right. I can live with any other. People who don't have the same top 4 can't be taken seriously imo.

 

[pankrat]

A decisive decision win is completely valid, yes. Obviously robberies or close decisions hold less value. Not everyone holds finishing as the be all end all metric. And frankly it's easier to get finishes when you're fighting in a weak division like Anderson was.

Finishing you opponent holds especial value since martial arts are called martial arts. If you wanna support GSP or whatever cool but cut the BS.

The division could be more or less deep but at the very top, Silva and GSP fought similar caliber of competition. So again, cut the BS.

 

[pankrat]

This is why it's so subjective. I don't think greatness can be defined by numbers, while some others do think so.

Silva vs. Forrest and Silva vs. Belfort alone are greater than anything GSP has done in his entire career. Fedor, being a relatively small HW dominating the best HWs at the time at their own style and going undefeated for 10 eyars is greater than anything else has done. Of course both of those are just opinions. At least TS has the OBVIOUS top 4 right. I can live with any other. People who don't have the same top 4 can't be taken seriously imo.

Well, I think Johnson has a case. He is not even a big flyweight, I'd not be surprised if he could even cut to straweight if there was money there

 

[Mike]

Finishing you opponent holds especial value since martial arts are called martial arts. If you wanna support GSP or whatever cool but cut the BS.

The division could be more or less deep but at the very top, Silva and GSP fought similar caliber of competition. So again, cut the BS.

It's a sport now. Winning by decision is completely valid. Especially when you are controlling the fight and doing more damage. Gsp has one weak defense, Hardy. Andy has several like that, and even with that he was still taking showcase lhw fights because there just weren't any contenders at mw. It's revisionist history to claim he faced some murderers row. Even during his prime people were talking about how weak mw was.

By the time there was real depth there Anderson was just about done. Guys like Cote and Leites are laughable as title defenses.

 

[TR1]

Maybe your definition is different because Silva was rarely in any trouble for most of his fights. Cat toying with a mouse type dominance. Fedor’s fights were usually more competitive imo

My definition is losing rounds, and fights.

Flat out lost to Takase and Chonan. Dominated by Sonnen. Lost rounds to Lutter, Hendo, and others.
Had performances that were absolute not dominant, even though he was not in trouble, like vs Maia and Leites.

 

[TR1]

No PED using

Indeed, dirty cheats can't be GOATs.

 

[tat2man5k]

Not really interested in these GOAT discussions since they are pure fantasy stuff, but it is funny how one of the most talked "criteria" is number of title defenses (something I always hear when people talk down Cormier and McGregor careers), but at the same time nobody consider Demetrious Johnson the GOAT, having the most title defenses in UFC history and is still defending his belt in ONE.

DJ has also probably the most well rounded skillset in mma, so how in the fuck he is never part of these GOAT talk?

The only answer I can give is, these are popularity contests and GSP and Fedor have by far the most nut huggers on this forum, followed by Jones and Anderson.

Huge Fedor hugger here, and I agree with this statement. Also think Aldo deserves to be in the talk, same as Cruz.

 

[pankrat]

It's a sport now. Winning by decision is completely valid. Especially when you are controlling the fight and doing more damage. Gsp has one weak defense, Hardy. Andy has several like that, and even with that he was still taking showcase lhw fights because there just weren't any contenders at mw. It's revisionist history to claim he faced some murderers row. Even during his prime people were talking about how weak mw was.

By the time there was real depth there Anderson was just about done. Guys like Cote and Leites are laughable as title defenses.

"Decision is completely valid"....wtf is that? yeah is valid but no as much as finishing your opponent, period. Stop pretending.

Cote and Leites are much less laughable as tittle defenses than Hardy, because:
1. They were better fighters, with more quality wins and losses.
2. Coté was an injury replacement. Hardy was the legitimate #1 contender at WW

The song about GSP facing stronger competition is only pushed by GSP nerd fanboys in these boards. At the very top, they were comparably strong, and as a matter of fact:

>Hardy beat Swick at WW and got him a tittle shot - Okami put a much worse beating on Swick at MW and didnt got him any tittle shot

> Maia fought for the tittle and was in several tittle eliminators at WW even in his 40s - Munoz and Marquardt beat Maia at MW and didnt got them any tittle shot

>Shields beat Kampann at WW by split dec and got him a tittle shot - Marquardt KOed Kampann at MW in brutal fashion and didnt got him any tittle shot.

Shields who btw came to UFC as the MW champ in SF, and instead of competing in the "easy" UFC MW division, decided to go through diet and a painful weight cut to fight at WW, how is that? Facts contradict the GSP fanboys theory yet again....and Shields is actually regarded as one of the best opponents in GSP's career.

 

[GOATtalks]

This honestly seems reasonable, but if you added mighty mouse in there he'd be 2nd or 3rd

If you add more people to it it changes the outcome. The idea is to put the record holders in each criteria and than see how they stack up together. My top10 looks like this:

1. Jones
2. GSP
3. DJ
4. Anderson
5. Khabib
6. Stipe
7. DC
8. Fedor
9. Conor
10. Cejudo

 

[thorcorm]

It is crazy to me when people talk about Jones' strength of schedule or resume as something amazing, when the reality is for the most part he fought blown up MW's.

 

[mjfan23]

Let’s also add GOAT of pharmaceutical enhancements to your list and we can really move Jon Jones and Silva ahead of the others.

 

[GOATtalks]

Well, I think Johnson has a case. He is not even a big flyweight, I'd not be surprised if he could even cut to straweight if there was money there

Johnson has a great case, but he isn’t as small as you think. He can’t make 115. He fought at 135 and 125 his whole career. He fights at 135 in One, because he can’t make 125 with their hydration levels

 

[pankrat]

Johnson has a great case, but he isn’t as small as you think. He can’t make 115. He fought at 135 and 125 his whole career. He fights at 135 in One, because he can’t make 125 with their hydration levels

Are you sure about that? I barely remember a smaller man than him fighting at 135 lbs.
At 125, Tim Elliot completely dwarfed him. So did Wada in ONE.
Deiveson Figueiredo cuts more weight to make 125 that DJ probably would need to make 115

If DJ is fighting at Flyweight in ONE is because that's their signature division. It doesnt any sense for them having Johnson fighting in a shallow straweight division